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Balthamel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Balthamel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: about the conversation form in forum
    Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 4:20pm
one other thing Ive seen in metal forum when the REAL metal heads are arguing, the tone can be realy harsh, more harsh then in PA so the admins have to be allert about that issue. they are not afraid to say what they REALY  mean about certan things and can give you a real Shocked shock sometimes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NJCat_11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by Balthamel Balthamel wrote:

one other thing Ive seen in metal forum when the REAL metal heads are arguing, the tone can be realy harsh, more harsh then in PA so the admins have to be allert about that issue. they are not afraid to say what they REALY  mean about certan things and can give you a real Shocked shock sometimes


Just as Norwegians speak Norsk, Metalheads tell it how it is.
This is a Metal forum after all, why should such trivial matters be dealt with at all?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Balthamel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 4:40pm
hmm well, just good manners. but I agree ther should be allowed to raise the bar regarding language here since this is not a sofisticated prog site but a brutal metal page

and im both Norwegian and partly metalhead so be prepeard for norse honusty  (Viking power roooar)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Balthamel Balthamel wrote:

one other thing Ive seen in metal forum when the REAL metal heads are arguing, the tone can be realy harsh, more harsh then in PA so the admins have to be allert about that issue. they are not afraid to say what they REALY  mean about certan things and can give you a real Shocked shock sometimes


perhaps I should volunteer as an admin....  LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NJCat_11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Balthamel Balthamel wrote:

one other thing Ive seen in metal forum when the REAL metal heads are arguing, the tone can be realy harsh, more harsh then in PA so the admins have to be allert about that issue. they are not afraid to say what they REALY  mean about certan things and can give you a real Shocked shock sometimes


perhaps I should volunteer as an admin....  LOL 


Now that's an idea! Approve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 4:14am
I don�t see that MMA being a metal site should give people more right to flame each other than in real life. I would very much like to see a civilized forum tone just like it is on PA. Harsh words and name calling have a tendency to escalate to something worse. I think there should be a clear policy on this from the start.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vehemency Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 4:27am
Metal, in general, will attract relatively  young people, compared to, say, prog people. Just a generalisation, of course. Still can't escape the fact that metal has become "the new pop", and it might result in a younger base of users, so I would already believe there will be need for extra caution against possible flamers, trolls et cetera in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 5:58am
^Yep that�s my fear too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 6:45am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I don�t see that MMA being a metal site should give people more right to flame each other than in real life. I would very much like to see a civilized forum tone just like it is on PA. Harsh words and name calling have a tendency to escalate to something worse. I think there should be a clear policy on this from the start.


Quoted for truthClap. There are lots of places one can go to if they want to call other people names - and I don't think anyone wants to perpetuate the stereotype of metal fans as uncouth savagesWink.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 6:57am
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I don�t see that MMA being a metal site should give people more right to flame each other than in real life. I would very much like to see a civilized forum tone just like it is on PA. Harsh words and name calling have a tendency to escalate to something worse. I think there should be a clear policy on this from the start.


Quoted for truthClap. There are lots of places one can go to if they want to call other people names - and I don't think anyone wants to perpetuate the stereotype of metal fans as uncouth savagesWink.


seeing how we have a blank canvas here... again... and using the lessons of PA's as an example.  I'd hate to see.. and hope whoever gets selected as for the admin team keeps this... a music forum... A music forum. If people want to discuss hot women.. f**king politics/health care... or their jock itch... they have another forum to do that.  Seeing how this site is a sista/brotha site to PA's...  leave those kinds of threads there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:01am
As an Admin on PA who routinely deals with this kind of issue I would rather that MMA was a more open and less moderated forum. The policy we practise on the PA protects the offender as much as it does the person being attacked and many times I wonder if that was really necessary, especially when in many cases the people being "offended" were not those being directly attacked. One instance I remember was when a person apparently joined the forum just to attack me and ridicule my avatar - unfortunately the "offence" occurred when I was offline and he had already been banned by the time I logged back on - while I feel honoured and proud that other people came to my defence, I still wonder what drove this person to act as they did and why they picked on me specifically and I missed the opportunity to ask them myself. I'm not the shy and retiring type - if someone attacks me I want to confront them to find out why.
 
The language is subtle - I can be offensive, sarcastic and ironic in my own language and it will sail over the heads of many native speakers due to minor cultural variations or the subtleties just get lost in translation, similarly I can use overtly offensive phrases that are not offensive at all in my local idiom but will put most people into a flat-spin if I used them. One of the things that amuses me about the free-speach brigade who cry when people don't understand they are being sarcastic is that they don't "get it" when it is used against them - rather than thumping them everytime someone doesn't get their "humour" we should be educating them in to realising that people don't get their humour because it just isn't funny, or because we don't have the same cultural background as they do. Thumping them teaches them nothing about everyday human interaction nor does it improve their interpersonal skills.
 
If that is how people behave "in real life" then why hamstring them when they discuss music and other subjects here? Wouldn't it be better to learn how to deal with these people and not take offence at every minor slight and/or bad mouthing. What drives these people is how you respond - throwing a hissy fit and calling for Admin intervention every time someone calls you an idiot for thinking that one Metal band is better than another Metal band is pandering to them. We should accept that some people lack the ability to carry an argument without reverting ad hominen attack, pity them or ridicule them, but don't censure them. Learn to ride over the offence and ignore it, refute it or argue against it on your terms not theirs'.
 
Of course if someone is being routinely picked on, harrassed or bullied then intervention is required, but for minor infringments I beleive it adds to the problem rather than fixing it.
 
I haven't read it for a couple of years now, but Terrorizer used to have a policy of censoring the word "f**k" (like PA does) - their justification for that was not coy prudery but to draw attention to the word - like drawing an underline beneath it - it's power as a swear word was not diminished by such censoring but emphasised. However if we take offence every time someone uses the word and block, hide or censure the person for using it, (even when censored by the ubiquitous apostrophe), then I feel we are becoming oversensitive to the slightest of slights and see offence where none was intended, blowing them out of all proportion.
 
I'm not saying that the MMA should become a Wild West forum, but just one that is more open and "real" than the PA.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Balthamel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:03am
can we have a poll what is most metal
Jack Daniels vs Captain Morgan Rawks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:10am
Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

 
I'm not saying that the MMA should become a Wild West forum, but just one that is more open and "real" than the PA.
 
 


nice post Dean

exactly...  Clap which is the underlying point regarding my earlier post.  To quash the more controvserial topics from the start..... that inflame passions and pollute the atmosphere.. and require  moderation... like politics and religion ... you do have a more open and real forum and in the end.. a less moderated forum.  A bit of up-front moderation... is worth a ton of continuous moderation...   consider this an experiment for M@X for his future forums... as I've hinted before.. let the mistakes and problems of PA's be a guide for his future sites. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:13am
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

seeing how we have a blank canvas here... again... and using the lessons of PA's as an example.  I'd hate to see.. and hope whoever gets selected as for the admin team keeps this... a music forum... A music forum. If people want to discuss hot women.. f**king politics/health care... or their jock itch... they have another forum to do that.  Seeing how this site is a sista/brotha site to PA's...  leave those kinds of threads there.
I can go along with that. Music debates are just as volatile and just as heated. That Metalheads are not no-neck Neanderthals doesn't change the fact that we can be just as vitriolic as a Proghead when discussing music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:17am
Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

seeing how we have a blank canvas here... again... and using the lessons of PA's as an example.  I'd hate to see.. and hope whoever gets selected as for the admin team keeps this... a music forum... A music forum. If people want to discuss hot women.. f**king politics/health care... or their jock itch... they have another forum to do that.  Seeing how this site is a sista/brotha site to PA's...  leave those kinds of threads there.
I can go along with that. Music debates are just as volatile and just as heated. That Metalheads are not no-neck Neanderthals doesn't change the fact that we can be just as vitriolic as a Proghead when discussing music.


exactly...  as long as it is music... let people bring it on...   it is where things turn personal.. and that usually happens in off-topic subjects that I would think that moderation is most needed.  Remove those...  remove the need for continuous moderation...   as far as music discussion...  self moderation might work best... a big mouth.. will find a bigger mouth to put them in their place... there are always smarter and more knowledgeable people than ourselves out there.  A big mouth.. one who'll trash others.. will find themselves trashed.  Not exactly the fastest gun.. largest caliber of the old west... but mighty close.  One that might make for an interesting forum...  self-policing  with forum moderation needed when things get way out of hand.


Edited by micky - 27 Mar 2010 at 7:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:18am
One thing at least I agree with in Dean's post: censoring the 'f' word as we do draws attention to it, and makes it more unpleasant than it really is. I've seen other forums leave all the 'f' words alone, and they become almost harmless, lost in the wider context.

As regards the rest, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. People our age are certainly not going to change the way they see things, and I don't believe it is good to force them to 'ignore' certain situations. If you can, more power to you - but I take exception to being told how I should react (and I'm not referring to you, Dean, but rather to people I used to know in real life). I also disagree about any Internet forum taking on a role that should be the prerogative of families. If some people can only communicate with others through slights, insults and abrasive sarcasm, I don't see why we should try to teach them otherwise - perhaps driving valuable people away, as has happened on PA.

As a final remark: I would have no problem whatsoever in responding in kind to anyone who attacked me. I have done so in the past, and will do it to anyone who steps on my toes in real life. However, I choose not to do that on the Internet, for a series of reasons I won't go into now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:25am
Originally posted by dean dean wrote:

As an Admin on PA who routinely deals with this kind of issue I would rather that MMA was a more open and less moderated forum. The policy we practise on the PA protects the offender as much as it does the person being attacked and many times I wonder if that was really necessary, especially when in many cases the people being "offended" were not those being directly attacked. One instance I remember was when a person apparently joined the forum just to attack me and ridicule my avatar - unfortunately the "offence" occurred when I was offline and he had already been banned by the time I logged back on - while I feel honoured and proud that other people came to my defence, I still wonder what drove this person to act as they did and why they picked on me specifically and I missed the opportunity to ask them myself. I'm not the shy and retiring type - if someone attacks me I want to confront them to find out why.
 
The language is subtle - I can be offensive, sarcastic and ironic in my own language and it will sail over the heads of many native speakers due to minor cultural variations or the subtleties just get lost in translation, similarly I can use overtly offensive phrases that are not offensive at all in my local idiom but will put most people into a flat-spin if I used them. One of the things that amuses me about the free-speach brigade who cry when people don't understand they are being sarcastic is that they don't "get it" when it is used against them - rather than thumping them everytime someone doesn't get their "humour" we should be educating them in to realising that people don't get their humour because it just isn't funny, or because we don't have the same cultural background as they do. Thumping them teaches them nothing about everyday human interaction nor does it improve their interpersonal skills.
 
If that is how people behave "in real life" then why hamstring them when they discuss music and other subjects here? Wouldn't it be better to learn how to deal with these people and not take offence at every minor slight and/or bad mouthing. What drives these people is how you respond - throwing a hissy fit and calling for Admin intervention every time someone calls you an idiot for thinking that one Metal band is better than another Metal band is pandering to them. We should accept that some people lack the ability to carry an argument without reverting ad hominen attack, pity them or ridicule them, but don't censure them. Learn to ride over the offence and ignore it, refute it or argue against it on your terms not theirs'.
 
Of course if someone is being routinely picked on, harrassed or bullied then intervention is required, but for minor infringments I beleive it adds to the problem rather than fixing it.
 
I haven't read it for a couple of years now, but Terrorizer used to have a policy of censoring the word "f**k" (like PA does) - their justification for that was not coy prudery but to draw attention to the word - like drawing an underline beneath it - it's power as a swear word was not diminished by such censoring but emphasised. However if we take offence every time someone uses the word and block, hide or censure the person for using it, (even when censored by the ubiquitous apostrophe), then I feel we are becoming oversensitive to the slightest of slights and see offence where none was intended, blowing them out of all proportion.
 
I'm not saying that the MMA should become a Wild West forum, but just one that is more open and "real" than the PA.
 


ClapI was leaning towards agreeing with the OP. This post changed my mind. Well said, Dean.Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:44am
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

One thing at least I agree with in Dean's post: censoring the 'f' word as we do draws attention to it, and makes it more unpleasant than it really is. I've seen other forums leave all the 'f' words alone, and they become almost harmless, lost in the wider context.

As regards the rest, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree. People our age are certainly not going to change the way they see things, and I don't believe it is good to force them to 'ignore' certain situations. If you can, more power to you - but I take exception to being told how I should react (and I'm not referring to you, Dean, but rather to people I used to know in real life). I also disagree about any Internet forum taking on a role that should be the prerogative of families. If some people can only communicate with others through slights, insults and abrasive sarcasm, I don't see why we should try to teach them otherwise - perhaps driving valuable people away, as has happened on PA.

As a final remark: I would have no problem whatsoever in responding in kind to anyone who attacked me. I have done so in the past, and will do it to anyone who steps on my toes in real life. However, I choose not to do that on the Internet, for a series of reasons I won't go into now.
I'm an old dog who likes learning new tricks Wink
 
I guess it is because I deal with these situations in real life that I see no reason to restrict them here. If I get into a heated debate over music, like I have done for example with members of this band, then cutting that exchange short because they (or I) got offended would have left bad-feelings between us that need not (and do not) exist in reality. If someone persists in being offensive then by all means ignore them and walk away, but often it is simply a misunderstanding or a heat of the moment outburst ...
 
It is not about being proactive in teaching these people manners, but about taking a different approach so they learn themselves how to respond without causing offense.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 7:51am
You know, Dean, I'm probably much more pessimistic than you are about human nature. On the other hand, I agree that on the Internet many frictions are caused by the limitations of the medium, and the lack of all those factors that characterize spoken, face-to-face interaction. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote J-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 10:00am
I'm completely with Jonas on this. Just because we're metalheads doesn't mean we have the right to treat people poorly. I'm one of the (if not THE) youngest member on ProgArchives, but I believe I behave pretty well in internet forums in general. I'm sure that there will be kids coming here that are ready to act like jerks on MMA, but I think we should use the same punishments for trolling, terrorizing, etc. that we do on PA.

Just my thoughts,
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