King Crimson for proto-metal?
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Forum Name: Suggest new bands/artists to MMA
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Metal Music Archives
URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1360
Printed Date: 21 Dec 2024 at 4:33am
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Topic: King Crimson for proto-metal?
Posted By: Andyman1125
Subject: King Crimson for proto-metal?
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:19am
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There's no doubt that these guys have had a huge influence on prog-metal bands today, and even some modern metal bands (Ozzy covered 21st Century Schizoid Man). They have a distinct proto-metal feel that made me want to suggest them. A little treat  ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow">  http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Replies:
Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:31am
I'll let the proto metal team know of your suggestion. I love KC, whether we decide to include them here or not. 
------------- https://armchairmaestro.com/" rel="nofollow - My Music Blog |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:34am
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I support their inclusion. They've had a more subtle influence on metal than, say, Led Zeppelin or Deep Purple, but I think if we want to accurately represent the formation of heavy metal, King Crimson played a key role. Dream Theater has also covered LTIA by the way. 
------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 9:41am
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And Tool/A Perfect Circle/whatever other band Maynard James Keenan is in have also covered 21st Schizoid! ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 10:43am
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I really don't think they belong, as much as I love King Crimson. Having 4 or 5 songs that are sort of similar to metal doesn't make them at all related to metal. Even if they were included, all their albums would be "non-metal" but have maybe one "proto-metal" song on them |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 12:37pm
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I think more than just 4 or 5 songs are "metal." Yes, many of their songs are ballads, but most bands have ballads. Look at CMX's discography. They have 1 metal album out of something like 10 studio records. I would easily call Red a proto-metal album, as with Lark Tongues. Three of a Perfect Pair might even be called alternative metal in some cases. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 12:46pm
I'd imagine if KC are added to MMA, only some of their pr-80s work would be tagged proto. In my opinion, their 80s material isn't metal at all, but some songs on Thrak and later albums could be considered metal, but would most likely be tagged non-metal as a whole. ------------- https://armchairmaestro.com/" rel="nofollow - My Music Blog |
andyman1125 wrote:Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 12:54pm
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It would really be difficult to tag any of their albums as metal. But it would be a shame not to include them because arguably 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first progressive metal song plus a smattering of other songs spread throughout their discography are also metal. ------------- 
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 1:07pm
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Some albums like Red, Larks Tongues and and maybe the debut could be tagged proto-metal but that�s entirely up to the proto team to decide. Personally I�m biased as King Crimson arguably don�t have one album that through and through could be called "metal". On the other side they�ve been a great influence on metal and especially progressive metal so that might speak in their favour. Proto-metal acts aren�t per definition "metal" acts. They came before metal and influenced the genre if I understand the definition correctly. But that would also mean that you can�t label their 80s or later albums with the proto tag. They would be tagged non-metal. ------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 1:23pm
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Yea, that's the case with Rush.... all the pre 80s albums are proto-metal, then with Counterparts it switched to alt metal... because it was at that point. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 2:44am
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^Depends on your point of view.
In the late 1970s, Rush WERE Progressive Metal - there was not much else that was. There was no "proto" about Rush - they were considered metal - not sure why history is being re-written!
With Crimson, however, the proto case is easier to make; Taking "ITCoTCK" as the prime example, then comparing it to later metal albums with slower and more atmospheric content, it's pretty cut and dried as proto-metal (we don't have a proto progressive metal category, or that's where that album would be);
The case for 21st Century Schizoid Man is closed, the title track is massive, epic, and doomy. It's not full-on metal, but that's the point of "proto". MoonChild is avante garde playing so "out there" that few people I've come across can actually appreciate what Crimson were doing - here's a hint - there's little that's truly random about it.
There are many technical and "progressive" metal bands that have tried to push into this kind of direction, but, to the best of my knowledge, Crimson remain the only rock band that have truly broken into the realms of musical expression in such an abstract, yet intelligent, logical and artistically creative way.
So that's 3 out of 5. Admittedly, the other two fall short in terms of metal - but I think that the importance of the 3 I mentioned are too vital to overlook (although I'd guess most won't see the MoonChild connection).
The other albums all need to be weighed up - but I think that Crimson's back catalogue is of interest to most people who like metal, so my vote is add them!
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 8:15am
Agreed. The debut contains proto-metal, and Red & LTIA contain a unique form of classic 70s metal. The last era also has quite some prog-metal.
That applies better to Led Zep, who are already here. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 7:33pm
| well wtf are Led Zeppelin doing here then? Get rid of em! |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2011 at 8:50pm
^ Well they were "heavy metal" in the 70s, so they kind of need to be here  ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 12:14am
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^I've never seen any direct reference to this in documents of the time, but from the late 1970s onwards there are plenty of published articles which refer to Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, etc. as the earliest heavy metal bands - which doesn't stop them being hard rock, heavy rock and progressive rock as well... those were highly creative and formative times!
The earliest reference to Heavy Metal in a musical context has precious little to do with what people call Heavy Metal now - it's a fantastic, constantly evolving genre, so it's wrong to say that (insert band name here) is NOT Heavy Metal - unless they're not, of course...
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Posted By: The Angry Scotsman
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 1:02am
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Love King Crimson, and I do think they had some impact on metal. But really, this seems like a huge stretch, even for proto metal. Let's not repeat mistakes of PA, one being including bands we like! Hate being a stickler, but IMO we do need to a bit exclusive, as we see what happens when we allow to many borderline bands. Some sorta almost metal sounding songs, and some influence but really, they are prog rock and that's where they belong. A band claiming influence also should not warrant inclusion because influence does not equate to music. Tool claims them as a big influence, but that's prog metal/art rock whatever. Most "normal" metal bands I HIGHLY doubt claim KC as an influence. Elvis was a major (probably biggest) influence on Hendrix!Frank Zappa on SoaD Meshuggah and Slayer on Carpenter of Detones. So please, don't let the inspiration of a band sway your vote. We need to judge bands on their music, not history or inspiration etc Sorry for the rant, but I do not want a floodgate of PA proportions on here! All respect to Robert "God" Fripp of course!!! ------------- Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal! Listen to doom metal, worship Satan |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 2:20am
 p.s. I think you mean "Rober" |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2011 at 5:11am
Hey, I have no problems with rants - but I don't really get your point.
Leaving "influence" aside for a moment (you could argue that Van Halen or Faith no More were influenced by Soul music, and this would be more than valid reason to exclude Soul artists);
Isn't "21st Century Schizoid Man" (proto) metal enough?
What about the progressive metallic elements in "Red" or "Lark's Tongues"?
It's true that they had no 100% proto metal albums, but I think that if there's some there, and it's significant, then it's proto.
I think the main issue here isn't that Crimson didn't produce proto metal music - I think that they did, and the Youtubes posted above bear testament to this - but that they're better known for, ahem, other music - much of which puts a huge number of technical and progressive metal bands into the shade.
After all, Dust's early albums probably have 6-7 proto metal tracks on between them, but no-one complains about their inclusion.
It's the proto metal that counts - and "Suicide" kicks ass;
No-one has complained about The Sweet, MC5, Mountain, Aerosmith or Nightsun (another Progressive Rock band) - none of whom have 100% metal albums. It's proto-metal after all - and history IS important, as is influence, to a reasonable extent. It's all about context - or next we'll be purging 90% of NWoBHM (which few would consider "true" metal, but few know enough about the hundreds of bands in that category).
Why discount prog metal bands - is this out of convenience? Prog Metal is part of the Metal genre - the clue's in the name...
All I'm asking for is a little reasoning for why KC shouldn't be considered - why does it seem a stretch? Isn't "Thrak" a pure progressive metal track (never mind proto)?
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Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2011 at 9:47pm
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My point exactly. They would fit quite nicely. They would probably even fit into avant metal! ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Balthamel
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 8:14am
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i will also call the Musical Box by Genesis proto-heavy metal as well also parts of Dancing With the Moonlit Knight ------------- 
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Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 9:42am
Don't forget about the Knife. No like seriously, The Knife is so metal. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 3:09pm
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To be honest, I wouldn't even consider The Knife as proto - which is the Genesis example most people seem to give when suggesting them. The thing with Crimson, is that they wrote many songs which sound metal, as opposed to Genesis' occasional hard/heavy rock sound.
To me, the difference between the metal sound and the hard rock sound is the difference between Suicide by Dust and Warrior by Wishbone Ash.
Compare Thrak to any Genesis song, and that's what I mean.
I could get all analytical - but I think these examples speak volumes (and make for some great listening!).
The following are good examples of proto metal, IMHO;
The proto metal team currently have a very, very long list of proto metal bands to add - I'd be delighted to contibute to a thread on proto, including more examples of the real deal for you to enjoy!
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Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 7:06pm
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I mentioned The Knife purely in jest, I never considered actually suggesting them. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 7:16pm
| yeahhh if Genesis gets added to this site I will resign from my collab position |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 7:36pm
LOL, u srs? If Morse gets added, adding bands such Genesis will be only a rhetorical excercise. -------------   
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 7:51pm
I'm sorry - that is one of The dumbest things I have read in MMA history.  We get it - you disagree with the Neal Morse addition - you've made that clear by now. Unfortunately for you, there are many more people that support his addition based on ? and Sola Scriptura - both of which are progressive metal (or very damn close). If you disagree with the addition, fine. You've made that more very clear, and comments like this are completely futile - Neal Morse will be added. There is admin approval for the addition, and I'm working on preparing a bio. Again, I highly recommend actually listening to the albums in question, or at least these songs: ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 8:11pm
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I seem to have stirred up quite a bit of strife on MMA Obviously I support both of their inclusions And Caio, just accept it: Morse has released SOME metal. He may still be a symph/christian artist overall, but Sola Scriptura is 99% metal, and ? is 85% metal.
------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 8:12pm
Yesssssss ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 8:14pm
I'm not even that concerned about the Neal Morse thing... People will disagree with most anything. it's just the "since Neal Morse will be added, it'd be rhetorical exercise to add bands like Genesis" that irks me. Not true! Genesis never released a progressive metal album! ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 9:46pm
I have no idea how that came about I made a side comment that turned into some big hullabaloo ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2011 at 9:52pm
No, not your comment... this one:
------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 1:13am
It's hard to tell - I've actually seen people suggest Genesis as a proto metal band on other forums on the basis of that one song...
Can't really consider Morse - he's a bit late in the day for proto, while Crimson aren't (do you see what I did there?
 ). |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 5:15am
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Has King Crimson released an entire album which is hard rocking og metallish? (I've heard talk of Thrak being such an album, which I actually haven't heard myself).
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 7:47am
Thrak and Power to Believe COULD be classified as such, specially the latter, but the one album that really makes a point for KC is Red and classify them as a metal band would be an unecessary strech of concepts IMO. It is better to leave them out of MMA.
more info @ http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=191" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=191 -------------
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Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:43am
Aren't you contradicting yourself there a bit, or don't you buy the MMA guideline of adding bands who have at least one definite metal album? ------------- http://iamthreepeople.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow">  <- Click on this!
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 10:09am
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Yeah, that is quite a contradiction. Caio, we can add bands who have only one definite metal album. The question with KC is if they ever actually released a full-blown metal album.
------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Pelata
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 10:52am
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If I'm not mistaken, I think Forbidden also covered "21st Centiry Schizoid Man"... ------------- http://www.facebook.com/FinalSignOfficial" rel="nofollow - FINAL SIGN - US Power Metal |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:19am
I think that since KC have consistently dabbled and returned to the heaviest end of the spectrum that they're probably worth considering, full album or not - you could probably make a very decent and quite long album out of KC's metal and proto metal pieces.
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Posted By: Pelata
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:39am
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IMO, if we can consider Blue Cheer in the Proto-Metal category, then surely we can include King Crimson... ------------- http://www.facebook.com/FinalSignOfficial" rel="nofollow - FINAL SIGN - US Power Metal |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:43am
...and Voivod ------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 12:38pm
I'd go as far as say that we not only can add bands with only one definite metal album, but actually there's no reason whatsoever to keep them out of the archives. As said above, the trouble with KC is to decide if theirs is actually such a case. Well, I don't think the point is if they're metal enough but proto-metal enough. ------------- http://iamthreepeople.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow"> <- Click on this!
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 6:25pm
uh, NO, Red has 2 songs that could be seen as metal. Starless, Fallen Angel, One More Red Nightmare and Providence are NOWHERE near being metal, proto- or otherwise |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 6:34pm
One More Red Nightmare is certainly proto-metal ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 6:43pm
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^ Seconded: ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 6:45pm
| It is for the first 30 seconds... |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 7:26pm
It's so damn avant and experimental though, and has so many traits that back then constituted a major  (aka metal)------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 7:31pm
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and also this is very avant metal, once you get into the middle of the song ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 7:34pm
I think THRAK and The ConstruKction of Light might pass as avant or alternative metal, maybe, if the 70s albums aren't proto enough. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 8:06pm
| I just don't see it. |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 8:12pm
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well I do ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 8:13pm
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This is when you know you have a perpetual disagreement on your hands... "I just don't see it".... "well I do!" ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 8:38pm
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^They're always so much fun It's more the admin's and team member's decision anyway, we have little to do with it. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:29pm
| I'm a collab, I think my say at least counts for something |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:39pm
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True, but not as much as the proto team's colabs. If it goes to the avant team, then its all you (and your fellow collabs) ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:46pm
| That much, I can guarantee, will not happen. If the decision is made that King Crimson belongs in proto-prog, I will accept that and not complain even once, but frankly there is no way ANYBODY could legitimately believe they belong in avant-metal. |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:49pm
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That's perfectly acceptable I'm no avant-metal expert, I just thought Thrak and TCoL were rather experimental and "out-there" ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:55pm
Something can be somewhat avant without being metal |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 9:57pm
I'm not arguing with you, I was just pointing out my thought process. Your experience with the genre is obviously far greater than mine, and therefore you have a more "educated" say on whether KC is avant-metal or not. ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 10:03pm
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:| I don't even know where this conversation is going I think we should just let the proto team puzzle this over |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 10:06pm
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Good idea What other useless things might we talk about? ------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 2:48am
Continuing here on this one. If KC gets added, I can't see THRAK and TPtB classified as proto metal, after all they came out in 90s and 00s. If we decide they're indeed metal heavy, they need another tag. ------------- http://iamthreepeople.bandcamp.com" rel="nofollow"> <- Click on this!
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) so even if KC has one album...than fine. Posted By: The Angry Scotsman
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 3:32am
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I shall make a brief summary of my beliefs here. If KC is added to the archives we must be cautious with deciding what albums are listed as metal. In their context heavy may not be metal, since their music is so progressive we have to decide what is truly related to metal. Red is the only album I feel comfortable listing as proto-metal. THRAK I am also alright with, but Pekka had a good point. Albums that late can't be proto metal. IMO prog metal would be appropriate. ------------- Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal! Listen to doom metal, worship Satan |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 4:08am
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I thought we decided a while ago to forgo even the borderline hard rock/heavy metal cases until we had a stronger collection of more purely metal bands. And now we're considering King Crimson? Don't get me wrong, 21st Century Schizoid Man and LTiA contain some crazy stuff. I will say that they are perhaps among the heaviest riffs I've ever heard, even as a fan of more extreme metal. But they are far beyond a borderline case. I do think they definitely had more than "a few sort-of-metal songs". They had a few full blown metal songs, and a good percentage of sort-of-metal songs. However, if you add up all the material that could be even considered metal, you'd be hard pressed IMO to come up with maybe 30% of the band's catalogue. And they haven't even really released an album that's metal. That point has, as far as I know, yet to be refuted in this thread. The ConstruKction of Light? That's not a metal album. That's just a dissonant album with severe mixing issues. I find far too often people hear a dissonant riff and immediately label it as metal. Such is not always the case. ...and completely off topic, but "Dancing with the Moonlit Night" is totally a metal song.  ------------- Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 6:18am
KC doesn't have a full metal |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 6:43am
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^I think you�re right Alex. King Crimson don�t have to have one full metal album to be included. Mind you they are suggested for proto metal. That means music that greatly influenced metal. The albums that should be tagged proto metal should be the albums with proto metal songs. Even if there are only few of them on those albums. That means albums like Larks T, Red and Court. This is purely my personal opinion though and as I�ve said before it is entirely up to the proto metal team to decide wether or not King Crimson should be added and which albums should be tagged proto and which should be tagged non-metal. If any of the albums are considered for progressive metal I�m sure the proto team will take that discussion with the progressive metal team. ------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Andyman1125
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 9:42pm
If you think about, only INTENSE metal bands have 100 percent metal albums. Everyone from Metallica to Dream Theater throws in slower, less "metallic" songs
------------- http://bit.ly/kZR7BC" rel="nofollow"> http://andywebb.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - My Bandcamp
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:16am
Not actually, I just don't think they belong here. They have a dicography spanning through a +40 year spectrum and you will consider only one separate album and say that the band is metal because of that? Specially knowing just how many line-up changes and stillistic changes they have gone though? It is like saying that the Sahara is a fertile place just because of the few oasis it has. I'm not against the one album policy, quite the contrary, but it can't be applied as an absolute guideline for adding bands. If we do use that in an absolute way we will end up having major distortions, like there are in PA. Having one metal album among 15 studio albums (most of which do not have noticeable heavy metal influences) and adding a band on that sole basis is one of those distortions, IMO. -------------
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:30am
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:40am
Oh boy... It doesn't matter that they have 15 other studio albums. If you think Red is full-blown proto metal, then King Crimson should be added based on that album. Look at it this way... we don't have to always add metal bands. In some cases, we can add metal albums. What are these "major distortions in PA" that you keep referring to?
Maybe the entire Sahara isn't fertile... but that oasis sure is. Do you think it would be right to say "Since this oasis is in the Sahara (which is not fertile), it would be wrong to consider this oasis fertile."? We're not trying to prove that the entire Sahara is fertile - only that oasis. ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:41am
Dammit, Steve! You ninja'd me! 
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 7:57am
yeah but your Oasis explanation was much better than mine!   ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 8:02am
I spent almost 10 minutes writing it! ------------- Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 9:14am
I wasn't saying they had one metal album, I was saying that, over the years and over many albums, they've produced a fair bit of what could easily be considered proto or full progressive metal, as documented in the examples given earlier.
I don't buy the Sahara analogy - using that, you would be saying that Genesis couldn't be a Prog Rock band.
/edit: Dammit!
Colt and J-Man assassinated the Sahara analogy much better than I did!
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2011 at 7:42am
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Since this hasn't been closed, I won't start another thread just for this minor issue. As ITCOTCK was recognized as proto-metal, I was surprised to see that two of the live albums representing this era were marked as non-metal. The first is Epitaph, which shows the first line-up in all their heavy glory (IMO even more heavy and edgy than on the studio album). The second is Ladies Of The Road, which represents the Islands line-up and tour; while the first disc's metalness can be debated, the second disc consists of a continuous (by means of editing) medley of "Schizoid Men". Pure proto-metal madness! Thanks for considering this.  And cheers for having KC here! |
Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2011 at 8:37am
Thanks for pointing that out. I'll make those changes, and lock this thread now. Any other KC discussions can be done in other music sections of the forum. ------------- https://armchairmaestro.com/" rel="nofollow - My Music Blog |