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meshuggah - thrash metal! what the hell??
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Sckxyss View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Apr 2010 at 1:20am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

^I fully agree with you Harry. MMA definitions are very different from the ones on PA and we should think of MMA definitions on this site and not confuse them with PA definitions of what�s progressive or not. Old habits die hard and for some of us PA regulars there will be other challenges like this one to consider. Harry talks about the core sound of the band and that�s what I think we should be looking at too. 


Agreed. Progressive Metal here looks like it means specifically "Prog Metal", the unique and defined genre, rather than the adjective "progressive", which could apply to bands of any style of metal.

Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

Plus you have to realize that for most cases the site's decided to put all the extreme progressive metal bands in the subgenre most associated with them other than progressive metal. Meshuggah's definitely progressive thrash, so for this site it's the obvious fit.

Now Fredrik Thordendal's Special Defects, on the other hand, I believe a perfect fit for avant-garde, yet it's still in thrash.

This, however, I agree should be moved to avant-garde metal.


Edited by Sckxyss - 06 Apr 2010 at 1:21am
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micky View Drop Down
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Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I'm  glad that's fixed, cuz I would be f**king pisssed to see that Angry LOL.


she does look after me LOLHeart
She'd better. Or else I'll kill everyone and burn everything to ashes Angry. Ther rest you know. . . .LOL


yeah...  considering I am predisposed to getting myself in trouble.. she'd better.  It isn't like we are on a prog forum ...populated with pansies and pussies...  I'm on a metal forum now....Shocked best have my better half....  watch my back or someone might kick my ass back into the stoneage LOL
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I'm  glad that's fixed, cuz I would be f**king pisssed to see that Angry LOL.


she does look after me LOLHeart
She'd better. Or else I'll kill everyone and burn everything to ashes Angry. Ther rest you know. . . .LOL
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Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I'm  glad that's fixed, cuz I would be f**king pisssed to see that Angry LOL.


she does look after me LOLHeart
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CCVP View Drop Down
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I'm  glad that's fixed, cuz I would be f**king pisssed to see that Angry LOL.
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micky View Drop Down
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hahhahah.... yeah... that needed to be editted... but yeah...  we ain't exactly normal i suspect LOL
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Well, he called you Ciao instead of CaioLOL...
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

hahha....   you'll get used to my posting style Caio...it is a bit odd.   I knew it was a joke, yet served a purpose in my evil plans of internet domination hahha.  I have the maddening habit of quoting one person.. using their posts....and yet speaking to others LOL  Having received a PM on PA's... I see the person it was addressed to ...read it LOLLOLHeart
Edited by Raff - Today at 7:08pm
 
You guys have some serious personality problem LOLLOLTongue
 
Lova ya both anyway HeartSmile


Edited by CCVP - 04 Apr 2010 at 6:00pm
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micky View Drop Down
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hahha....   you'll get used to my posting style Caio...it is a bit odd.   I knew it was a joke, yet served a purpose in my evil plans of internet domination hahha.  I have the maddening habit of quoting one person.. using their posts....and yet speaking to others LOL  Having received a PM on PA's... I see the person it was addressed to ...read it LOLLOLHeart

Edited by Raff - 04 Apr 2010 at 5:08pm
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CCVP View Drop Down
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Not really, Caio... They released at least eight fully prog studio albums (not counting their debut nor the controversial Duke), and only five (or six) pop ones, with some prog thrown in for good measure. Therefore, they would stay in a fully prog genre. 
 
Should we count the singles, "best of"s and related then?  LOL


then there is the whole matter...   and trust me.. it makes a difference being a veteran of PA's.... how is the group perceived.   Genesis is known as a pop group by 99% of the music listening public...  and others like Deep Purple had almost as many 'heavy prog' albums as Genesis had symphonic prog albums... yet to some.. considering Deep Purple prog is a matter of revising history.   And Genesis wasn't?

it is a funny business putting a round group in a square hole....  glad to see that albums can be placed in different subs based on content.. not simply labels or perception.   Not sure if there is as much variety within metal (across the various sub-genres per album) as there was with prog...  but if there is (that is for the experts to know and decide)... this site has a mechanism in place to deal with it.

kudos again M@X...Clap
 
I wasn't being serious, you know . . . . . Not even on my first post about Genesis.Wink
 
The fact that you and Raff still don't get the joke is what makes it funnier. LOLLOL Relax people, this ain't progarchives, you don't have to back up every point you make because people are too blind to see the obviousness of it. Smile
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^I fully agree with you Harry. MMA definitions are very different from the ones on PA and we should think of MMA definitions on this site and not confuse them with PA definitions of what�s progressive or not. Old habits die hard and for some of us PA regulars there will be other challenges like this one to consider. Harry talks about the core sound of the band and that�s what I think we should be looking at too. 
Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE!
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The core of Meshuggah's sound has definitely been either thrash or groove metal (groove is listed as a sub genre of thrash under this site's definition anyway) depending on the album or even particular songs (e.g like obZen which featured the thrash metal of Combustion, while the rest of the album was rooted in groove metal).
The prog/experimental/avant garde aspect of of the band has always been secondary to their core sound of thrash and groove metal, which is why it makes perfect sense to slot them under thrash metal here.

To be honest most fans wouldn't even see them as a "prog" metal band at all. I certainly don't and this is coming from someone who thinks they put on one of the mos amazing live shows ever and owns most of their studio full lengths. To me, and most other fans, they've always been a thrash/groove metal band
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Thrash Metal is fine for me. They have nothing in common with progressive metal.
I know metalheads that would kill me if I told them Meshuggah play prog metal.
 
Also I wouldn't consider Voivod and Mekong Delta prog metal bands. They are a Thrash Metal band as well with some proginess here and there in their later albums.


Edited by lucas - 03 Apr 2010 at 7:13pm
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Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Not really, Caio... They released at least eight fully prog studio albums (not counting their debut nor the controversial Duke), and only five (or six) pop ones, with some prog thrown in for good measure. Therefore, they would stay in a fully prog genre. 
 
Should we count the singles, "best of"s and related then?  LOL


then there is the whole matter...   and trust me.. it makes a difference being a veteran of PA's.... how is the group perceived.   Genesis is known as a pop group by 99% of the music listening public...  and others like Deep Purple had almost as many 'heavy prog' albums as Genesis had symphonic prog albums... yet to some.. considering Deep Purple prog is a matter of revising history.   And Genesis wasn't?

it is a funny business putting a round group in a square hole....  glad to see that albums can be placed in different subs based on content.. not simply labels or perception.   Not sure if there is as much variety within metal (across the various sub-genres per album) as there was with prog...  but if there is (that is for the experts to know and decide)... this site has a mechanism in place to deal with it.

kudos again M@X...Clap
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Plus you have to realize that for most cases the site's decided to put all the extreme progressive metal bands in the subgenre most associated with them other than progressive metal. Meshuggah's definitely progressive thrash, so for this site it's the obvious fit.

Now Fredrik Thordendal's Special Defects, on the other hand, I believe a perfect fit for avant-garde, yet it's still in thrash.
Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Not really, Caio... They released at least eight fully prog studio albums (not counting their debut nor the controversial Duke), and only five (or six) pop ones, with some prog thrown in for good measure. Therefore, they would stay in a fully prog genre. 
 
Should we count the singles, "best of"s and related then?  LOL


Edited by CCVP - 03 Apr 2010 at 5:27pm
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Originally posted by idiotPrayer idiotPrayer wrote:

only meshuggahs debut may be called fully thrash metal. they were originally influenced by thrash, and then created something unique. and to say that they just slowed down the tempo is wrong. what they really did is that they became more innovative and unique = what prog metal is all about. it's a common misbelief that prog metal should be all about "look-what-i-can-do" and technicality, eg symphony x or dream theater.

catch 33 consists of ONE 45 min long song (13 tracks). not a single one off the riffs here are typical thrash metal riffs. still, there is place for complex arrangements, mechanically advancing, oddball tempos, ambient sounds and quieter dynamics, noise, electronics, programming and "robotic voices", tribal percussion and whispered vocals. 'nuff said
 
Dude, listen, I know what you mean. I really do. But the thing is, thrash metal continued past the 80's. This band brings the thrash metal sound to the present instead of keeping it on the 80's, like the majority of thrash metal band do.
 
Are they progressive? Yes, but Slayer, Morbid Angel and Kreator also were and they are nowhere near progressive metal. Meshuggah may generate discussions like this because they are a truelly progressive metal band, but the thing is, they are more representative to thrash metal than they are to progressive metal.Smile
 
Besides, the progressive metal genres in PA are sort of a dumping ground for every aspect of progressive heavy metal, so don't use it as a measuring stick here. Wink
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Messhugah in prog-metal would be almost an aberration. They are so different from the core bands of the genre (DT, FW) that it would be quite bizarre to put them in the same genre. Remember, on this site we HAVE the variety of metal options to put bands where they belong... As I have said, Metal itself has 23821031 genres (check metal-archives or metal-observer for a clue)  but we can work with what we have here. 

I think Thrash and industrial/groove is a good idea....they have elements of all of that.... In reality, is a new sound, based on polyrhythms and percussion-like riffs.... They're not proper thrash, but they're more thrash than prog-metal at least... 

They're a genre of their own. I'd put them in industrial metal if only for the machine-like sound they have... 
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No one, indeedWink!
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Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Not really, Caio... They released at least eight fully prog studio albums (not counting their debut nor the controversial Duke), and only five (or six) pop ones, with some prog thrown in for good measure. Therefore, they would stay in a fully prog genre. 
 
Yes Raff but think what would have happened if they had continued to produce pop albumsConfused. The balance would have shiftedBig smile. The system isn�t waterproof but what system is?
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