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Certif1ed 
MMA Special Collaborator
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Joined: 29 Mar 2010
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 Topic: AC/DC and sub-genres issues (alt. metal+hard rock)
Posted: 13 Jul 2010 at 6:03am |
 Conor Fynes wrote:
They are certainly not metal by today's standards... but more or less fit into the category that Black Sabbath would fit into.. |
Back In Black is a genre-defining heavy metal album alongside Motorhead's Ace of Spades and Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell (both released in the same year).
"Highway To Hell" was pretty much my introduction to heavy metal, and "For Those About to Rock" is essentially "BiB" revisited.
There is no point whatsoever in trying to define 1970s-1980s metal by today's standards! Heavy Metal was not invented recently, it is an old form of music that defies fashion and has evolved so significantly that many now are surprised by what it used to sound like.
Please check out the many video clips that I have been putting up of the more obscure Heavy Metal bands of the NWoBHM - THAT is what it used to sound like, and THAT is why AC/DC are as much Metal as they are Hard Rock.
Black Sabbath are unquestionably metal, in a modern sense - and in a completely different category to AC/DC. More modern bands show Sabbath influence, while the NWoBHM had considerable AC/DC influence.
Sabbath's style of metal is and always has been so completely and fundamentally different to AC/DC's - why on earth would it fit into the same category, unless you were simply confining them to "1970s"? I really don't understand - with the exception of the guitar tones, solos and aggression, it's totally different music.
Please excuse my apparent incredulity, but AC/DC never used a tritone in the whole of their recording carreer, and neither were they susceptible to the occult, use of keyboards or dramatic light and shade - and Sabbath barely ever recorded a 12-bar blues or sang drinking songs! The two are polar opposites!
Tell me again how they fit into the same category?
Edited by Certif1ed - 13 Jul 2010 at 6:04am
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Conor Fynes
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Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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Posted: 11 Jul 2010 at 1:57am |
They are certainly not metal by today's standards... but more or less fit into the category that Black Sabbath would fit into..
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AtomicCrimsonRush
MMA Metal Reviewer
Joined: 21 May 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 602
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Posted: 14 Jun 2010 at 10:16am |
Just found ACDC on here - so thats a great addition for sure.
Love their brand of metal - seen them in concert a few years ago - rocked the stadium.
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 GLAM METAL!
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AtomicCrimsonRush
MMA Metal Reviewer
Joined: 21 May 2010
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 602
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Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 8:49am |
Read all these ideas or at least scanned them
One way of getting around the issue of creating a hard rock category and stopping reviews from clogging up the main pages is to simply not allow reviews for those albums yet.
I noticed you did this on The Sweet for some albums that cant be reviewed. It is asuggestion. ACDC I would say would be expected to be here. It is not unusual to see ACDC on metal sites.
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GLAM METAL!
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Nightfly
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Death, D/S/D, T/S/G Teams
Joined: 07 Apr 2010
Location: UK
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Points: 5082
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Posted: 23 Apr 2010 at 10:18am |
Raff wrote:
No, M@x, he's serious.... I used to buy Kerrang! every month (or every two weeks) in the Eighties, and they were among the first to feature (and promote) Neo-Prog bands. I remember very well when they had Fish on their cover - though it was much later than # 2. |
That's right, Kerrang in the early days was more of a general rock magazine than purely metal. They even had Phil Collin's on the cover once!
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m@x
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Posted: 02 Apr 2010 at 6:52am |
Raff wrote:
I fully agree with all of the above, and think that, at least for the time being, we should put on hold any reviews of albums that are not metal-related. We have already seen how divisive the issue has been on PA, and I think it is always good to learn from previous mistakes.
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WOW, putting a old on ratings/reviews, that is something we did not think about . Yes sure, we will not allow reviewing and ratings on the OTHER albums.
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topofsm
MMA Metal Reviewer
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Location: Hate state, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 689
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 5:59pm |
Certif1ed wrote:
topofsm wrote:
^Basically this. Rock riffs are generally more blues based and I'd say more pop oriented (generally more repetitive and catchy). Whereas with Metal riffs you have more chugs, gallops, drones, alt picking and sweeps, etc. and they're more agressive rather than fun or catchy. AC/DC dishes out fun and catchy riffs in spades, with blues influence splattered all over the place.
Unfortunately, Guns n' Roses are often categorized as metal as well. |
Sadly it's not as simple as that - I really don't care for a "What is Metal" thread, but Metal can be blues, and Hard Rock can be aggressive.
Even Metal can be a bit poppy and catchy - "Run To The Hills" anyone? "Ace of Spades"? How about "United" by Judas Priest - there isn't even any "Gallop" in that one. The Scorpions are notorious for their ballads, and Van Halen covered Soul and Trad Jazz numbers. Metal is a hugely versatile genre, and knows no boundaries when it comes to assimilation. I wouldn't argue the toss over bands like Jane's Addiction or the Red Hot Chili Peppers, for instance.
I remember when "Appetite For Destruction" came out and there weren't many who would not have described it as Heavy Metal. GnR sank quickly into a mire of blues after that one, though.
The distinction is far from clear, and even Status Quo have been described as Metal (they headlined Donington in 1982 - I was there!). Marillion I totally draw the line at though - wish I had thought of it as an April fool!  I believe there was a compilation called "Soft Metal" which featured Kayleigh... |
I'm not disagreeing with you, though I'd like to point out that I meant generally. I just think that when people hear any mix of distorted guitars, minor keys, or agressive vocals people assume it's metal. When you say it's not as simple as that, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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Raff
Forum Senior Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Points: 1006
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 4:18pm |
Well, I know of at least one Prog compilation featuring "Don't Fear the Reaper"  .... Anyway, I agree with Mark's post 100%, especially as regards the versatility of metal - something not immediately evident to its detractors.
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Certif1ed
MMA Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: 29 Mar 2010
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 473
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 12:53pm |
topofsm wrote:
^Basically this. Rock riffs are generally more blues based and I'd say more pop oriented (generally more repetitive and catchy). Whereas with Metal riffs you have more chugs, gallops, drones, alt picking and sweeps, etc. and they're more agressive rather than fun or catchy. AC/DC dishes out fun and catchy riffs in spades, with blues influence splattered all over the place.
Unfortunately, Guns n' Roses are often categorized as metal as well. |
Sadly it's not as simple as that - I really don't care for a "What is Metal" thread, but Metal can be blues, and Hard Rock can be aggressive.
Even Metal can be a bit poppy and catchy - "Run To The Hills" anyone? "Ace of Spades"? How about "United" by Judas Priest - there isn't even any "Gallop" in that one. The Scorpions are notorious for their ballads, and Van Halen covered Soul and Trad Jazz numbers. Metal is a hugely versatile genre, and knows no boundaries when it comes to assimilation. I wouldn't argue the toss over bands like Jane's Addiction or the Red Hot Chili Peppers, for instance.
I remember when "Appetite For Destruction" came out and there weren't many who would not have described it as Heavy Metal. GnR sank quickly into a mire of blues after that one, though.
The distinction is far from clear, and even Status Quo have been described as Metal (they headlined Donington in 1982 - I was there!). Marillion I totally draw the line at though - wish I had thought of it as an April fool! I believe there was a compilation called "Soft Metal" which featured Kayleigh...
Edited by Certif1ed - 01 Apr 2010 at 12:55pm
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topofsm
MMA Metal Reviewer
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Location: Hate state, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 689
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 12:22pm |
^Basically this. Rock riffs are generally more blues based and I'd say more pop oriented (generally more repetitive and catchy). Whereas with Metal riffs you have more chugs, gallops, drones, alt picking and sweeps, etc. and they're more agressive rather than fun or catchy. AC/DC dishes out fun and catchy riffs in spades, with blues influence splattered all over the place.
Unfortunately, Guns n' Roses are often categorized as metal as well.
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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The T 666
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Location: Hell
Status: Offline
Points: 479
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 12:04pm |
lucas wrote:
topofsm wrote:
AC/DC are NOT metal. They are straightforward hard rock, and damn good at it too. I think maybe their song The Razor's Edge and maybe Thunderstruck are metal songs, but the rest of their catalogue has extremely little to no metal to it. |
what's the difference between hard-rock and heavy metal, Monsieur ? |
In a way, it's just a matter of degree. But it's clear to anyone who listens that the riff that informs all metal is less pre-eminent in hard rock that still has a lot of blues into it. Distortion, techniques in playing the guitars (the main instrument in both), rhythm are essential differences. For example, Guns n' Roses, Aerosmith = Hard Rock. None would ever qualify them as metal.
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lucas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: 31 Mar 2010
Location: France
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Points: 220
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 11:08am |
topofsm wrote:
AC/DC are NOT metal. They are straightforward hard rock, and damn good at it too. I think maybe their song The Razor's Edge and maybe Thunderstruck are metal songs, but the rest of their catalogue has extremely little to no metal to it. |
what's the difference between hard-rock and heavy metal, Monsieur ?
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m@x
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 6:44am |
Doh ! 
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Raff
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Points: 1006
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 6:30am |
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No, M@x, he's serious.... I used to buy Kerrang! every month (or every two weeks) in the Eighties, and they were among the first to feature (and promote) Neo-Prog bands. I remember very well when they had Fish on their cover - though it was much later than # 2.
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m@x
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Location: Québec, Canada
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 6:26am |
Certif1ed wrote:
Kerrang! magazine even lumped Marillion into the Metal bucket. I think Fish's face appeared on the cover of issue #2, promoting a somewhat lengthy interview. |
Yeah, right ! FISH -- as in, you've been "April Fooled" by Cert.
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Certif1ed
MMA Special Collaborator
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Joined: 29 Mar 2010
Location: London
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Posted: 01 Apr 2010 at 2:22am |
I think that one of the ways to begin distinguishing between hard rock and heavy metal is that heavy metal represents a breaking away from the blues and R&B which underpins hard rock - hence "Traditional" metal bands cannot help but be blues-influenced in some way. It's the way they escape the shackles of Blues Rock which is particularly interesting.
This is a "boundary" I'm examining with great interest (and enjoying loads of great music while I'm doing it - well, someone has to!).
The NWoBHM didn't represent a departure from Blues Rock - indeed, plenty of NWoBHM bands played it. Spider are probably the worst offenders, with Dumpy's Rusty Nuts, Larry Miller and Predatur not far behind.
NWoBHM was a well-defined period - a "movement" if you like, and it's important to note that it was not a style or genre. It hardly seems possible to lump Spider in with Praying Mantis, Iron Maiden and Venom. Not to mention Bad News and Spinal Tap, who emerged during the movement's heyday. Drat, I mentioned them...
Kerrang! magazine even lumped Marillion into the Metal bucket. I think Fish's face appeared on the cover of issue #2, promoting a somewhat lengthy interview.
Edited by Certif1ed - 01 Apr 2010 at 2:24am
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Negoba
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Posted: 31 Mar 2010 at 4:24pm |
I would invite folks not necessarily on the alt.metal team to chime in their opinions on where we should be drawing the line. Collabs can use the official thread and I'll check this one as well.
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m@x
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
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Posted: 31 Mar 2010 at 3:53pm |
About the NWoBHM inclusion or not in Traditional Metal...
I want to take position here and consider the following facts:
- Most Traditional Metal are blues-influenced and NWoBHM artists mostly not
- We are an archive site , as a future reference in metal music and since Proto, Traditional and NWoBHM basically started it all, it's important to split them considering their historical importance. People need to know that there is a line and that the NWoBHM movement was extremely important for the evolution of the styles and multiples sub-genres.
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Sleepwalker
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Posted: 31 Mar 2010 at 9:43am |
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This thread has been moved back to the suggest new bands and artists subforum by the admin team.
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Raff
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Posted: 31 Mar 2010 at 8:44am |
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I fully agree with all of the above, and think that, at least for the time being, we should put on hold any reviews of albums that are not metal-related. We have already seen how divisive the issue has been on PA, and I think it is always good to learn from previous mistakes.
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AC/DC and sub-genres issues (alt. metal+hard rock)
