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Was Metallica really responsible ?

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ProgMetaller2112 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 4:42am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Yeah I know Venom had a really dark and aggressive sound a couple of years before Metallica released their debut, but to my ears they weren´t really thrash, but more a fast occult themed heavy metal act (or proto-thrash if you will). Of course they were incredibly influential on the thrash metal genre, but really fast and aggressive thrash metal with sharp edgy riffing, I´m not sure I´d credit Venom with that.
 
...and yeah the Slayer thing is pretty interesting too, and it´s obvious when you listen to Show No Mercy, that they still had a lot of heavy metal influences in their music, which is only to a lesser degree audible on Kill ´em All, which is actually the most raw and aggressive release out of those two.

To me Show No Mercy sounds like it is Metallica influenced in a way. Listen to Crionics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 9:54am
^It definitely is, my point was just that Show No Mercy has more in common with traditional heavy metal than Kill ´em All does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gabimm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

If Metallica was the most popular thrash band, it was only because they were the least thrash of them all


Yes, Metallica was the most popular thrash metal band and perhaps still is, even though less now thrash. His first four albums of the 80s' were critical for movement and for other bands too, also consider the aggressive, melodically very rich and elegant with complex passages. But of the 90 'here are not thrash, that was in the past and was very well represented. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) the thrash metal NEVER be popular. How would Sam Dunn in the movie Metal: A Headbanger's Journey, "who does not understand the metal, can be left out, just do not need you." Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 11:38am
Metallica was the first band to release a thrash metal LP. Show No Mercy came 6 months later and was notably less thrashier and aggressive.

People forget or don't know altogether what kind of an impact some songs had in the metal community. Songs like Whiplash were a huge shock and I think it is obvious that it is a song far heavier and faster than anything Venom did at that point.

Motorhead and Venom are definitely the godfathers of thrash (and Venom is also the godfather of death metal and black metal) but their music cannot be labelled thrash except in the case of a couple of songs (usually cited as proto-thrash).

In the Bay Area there were other bands doing heavy, fast music (like Exodus or Metal Church) but Metallica was the best and the first to set the standards. Slayer, as already mentioned had to take their cue from Metallica to step up their game after seeing them live in 1983 and still, you can't say that Hell Awaits was heavier than say Fight Fire with Fire or Creeping Death. Scarier, sure. Darker, absolutely. Sicker, of course! But heavier? Slayer sat on the thrash metal throne in 1986 with Reign in Blood but that's because Metallica were aiming for a much larger one (well, I am not sure they could dethrone Slayer even if they tried though... I mean Angel of Death and Raining Blood can't really be topped...).

Damage Inc, Battery, Disposable Heroes are absolute heavy as fuck and fast as hell thrash metal songs. Megadeth's classic Peace Sells is notably lighter and Anthrax were on the same level. Exodus? After the monumental Bonded by Blood, if anything got more accessible by thrash metal standards.

And it should be good to remember that the Big 4 of thrash had nothing to do with "first" or "most influential", even though they were certainly among them. It was all about the most popular and believe it or not during the Clash of the Titans tour (91), Slayer was the LEAST popular even though by that time they were the undisputed kings of thrash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 11:45am
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Incorporating classical music into metal? YES!
And a damn fine job at that. They perfected a hybrid hinted at since Deep Purple AND pulled it off.

Er, what? Confused 

I think you are confusing Metallica with Yngwie Malmsteen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 11:49am
Also, if Crionics is influenced by someone it is most definitely Iron Maiden. Total Maiden worship. And done wonderfully I might add.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 1:32pm
Vic Hug Happy new year and nice to see you Again on MMA Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2015 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I don´t think that´s true at all. I think the first four Metallica albums are far more thrashy than most of Megadeth and Anthrax music, just to pull out a few examples of contemporary artists.


Moreso the first 2, to my ears, and I'd mark that down as largely due to Dave Mustaine's influence/writing.  But my main point is that they weren't really big in that sense until after they more or less stopped making thrash metal.

Anthrax has always seemed like a musical footnote to me so I won't comment on them


Edited by Triceratopsoil - 08 Jan 2015 at 3:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 2:04am
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I don´t think that´s true at all. I think the first four Metallica albums are far more thrashy than most of Megadeth and Anthrax music, just to pull out a few examples of contemporary artists.


Moreso the first 2, to my ears, and I'd mark that down as largely due to Dave Mustaine's influence/writing.  But my main point is that they weren't really big in that sense until after they more or less stopped making thrash metal.

Anthrax has always seemed like a musical footnote to me so I won't comment on them

Anthrax is great,dude!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 4:26am
The Anthrax comment is a personal opinion about the band, but viewed upon objectively they are one of the most successful and influential thrash metal bands of that period.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 7:23am
Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 10:23am
Happy new year UMUR! I lurk from time to time! I like this place! ;)

As for Mustaine's influence, he sure had a hand in shaping thrash metal from the start but the heaviest songs (like Whiplash, the final part of No Remorse, Motorbreath, the Hit the Lights riff) weren't his with the exception of Metal Militia. He wrote Jump in the Fire, Four Horsemen (as Mechanix) and Phantom Lord which are the closest to "traditional" heavy metal. His statements that he created thrash are really self-flattering as he always mentions the solos as being an integral part of it. Hetfield was way more responsible and it can be confirmed with the host of GBH and Discharge shirts he was seen wearing afterwards. He did not know those bands before Kill Em All was released but it is telling that he really appreciated the other extreme stuff of the time. 

Also let us not forget that Dave Mustaine was calling Megadeth the state of the art speed metal band, he wanted to be the fastest and the most technical (and certainly faster and more technical than Metallica, to prove a point).

Anthrax is VERY influential. Perhaps some don't like the kind of influence they had but it is undeniable. For starters, SOD was a HUGE influence to the groove/nu/rap/modern/whatever metal. How many bands have ripped off March of the SOD? That's 1985! The crossover, the image, the skate culture, the I'm the Man single which catapulted them to success, their tour with Public Enemy (unheard of! hip hop and thrash metal?). They really sold more than Slayer. As did Megadeth. 

There is a nice story about all that during the Clash of the Titans tour, when Mustaine was wondering why Slayer got to co-headline (and thus play last some nights) since they were clearly less popular than both Megadeth and Anthrax. And Scott Ian kinda agreed with that. Then famously, Slayer blew both bands out of the water on stage and in the merch sales, which resulted to the other two asking them to play last every night because otherwise the crowd was too exhausted for their shows. And again, famously, Kerry King was saying "serves them fuckers right, they wanted to rotate, we'll rotate!"

Good times. The least popular thrash metal band out of the big 4 destroying live the other two. Metallica of course in 1991 were on a completely different level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Vic Vic wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Incorporating classical music into metal? YES!
And a damn fine job at that. They perfected a hybrid hinted at since Deep Purple AND pulled it off.

Er, what? Confused 

I think you are confusing Metallica with Yngwie Malmsteen.

Nope. Not the neoclassical type of metal. Cliff Burton was a trained classical musician and incorporated it into the songwriting. Many of those catchy chord progressions have their roots in J.S.Bach amongst others. Subtle but that's what makes it utterly brilliant. I will go along with Metallica as the kings of early thrash. They really did add an extra oomph to the metal world unlike any other of the day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 9:10pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.

Dude, you're just different! There's no accounting for personal preferences of this sound or that. It's all good. I don't really have a favorite. They all had their moments good and bad. Personally i love Among The Living and Persistence Of Time but i even love their Fistful Of Metal. Their 90s stuff isn't my favorite though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.

Dude, you're just different! There's no accounting for personal preferences of this sound or that. It's all good. I don't really have a favorite. They all had their moments good and bad. Personally i love Among The Living and Persistence Of Time but i even love their Fistful Of Metal. Their 90s stuff isn't my favorite though

I agree, I'm not too big on the John Bush-era either. I did love 'We've Come for You All' though. I know everyone has their own preferences, I've just never understood why Anthrax gets the least notice of the big four Smile  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.

How about Among the Living and Persistence of Time Big smileLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unitron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2015 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.


I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


How about Among the Living and Persistence of Time Big smileLOL


Both of those are amazing, I was using Spreading the Disease as an example for speed though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by ProgMetaller2112 ProgMetaller2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.


I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


How about Among the Living and Persistence of Time Big smileLOL


Both of those are amazing, I was using Spreading the Disease as an example for speed though

Both definitely are amazing!! Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2015 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

Certainly, in the 80s and early 90s, Anthrax were more than just a musical footnote - regardless if we like them or not.

I don't understand why people think Anthrax is the worst of the big four often, they are very underrated. Anthrax is my personal favorite of the big four. Big smile 

They were very important in the development in thrash and speed metal, just listen to Spreading the Disease.


Interestingly, I did not really like Anthrax back in the day, and I only got into them on The Sound of White Noise,  because I liked how groovy 'Room for One More' is. Then I started really backtracking from there, and now I'm a big fan of the Belladonna-fronted stuff, while I find the John Bush stuff less interesting. I particularly love Among the Living, and I think that 'Indians' is one of the best thrash metal songs of all time. There's some really good stuff on Worship Music too.
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