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martindavey87 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 4:52am
Yeah, my first thread here, don't really know what to expect out of this discussion-wise, but just thought I'd throw it out there and let you guys do whatever.
 
Basically, one thing that always annoys me with pretty much any music genre, but mostly seen in Heavy Metal, is the need to be really articulate and specific about sub-genres. There are so many small genres in Metal that all sound the same to me, but yet each are given their own 'unique' name, such as Black Metal, Death Metal, Doom Metal, True-Norweigen Black Metal... I can't tell any of these apart.
 
The same could be said for Grindcore, Hardcore, Post-Hardcore, Deathcore, Metalcore... seriously... what are the differences? Hardcore and Post-Hardcore? Come on...
 
Back in 2003, myself and the keyboard player from our Prog Metal band auditioned for a Nu Metal band as a little something to do, the drummer told us they were 'heavy, alternative, melodic rock', to which my keyboard player buddy replied 'so you're a Nu Metal band?', the drummer then went on to explain the intricate differences between Nu Metal and Heavy-Alternative-Melodic-Rock... two genres which still sound exactly the same to my ears.
 
Anyways, the point of this is, I've always classed my Metal into six different subgenres. Within each genre can go ANY band. It may not be scientifically 100% accurate, but these six categories than generally sum up any band.
 
The genres:
 
(Traditional) Heavy Metal
Thrash Metal
Progressive Metal
Power Metal
Death Metal
Alternative Metal
 
Any Metal band can fit into any one of these. For example, Rammstein are commonly referred to as Industrial Metal. Whilst 'Industrial' is a good word to describe their music, as a genre I find it slightly stretching, in which case I would simply refer to them as a Heavy Metal band. It may not be 100% right, but if I were to say 'I like Rammstein, they're a Heavy Metal band'... it would make sense.
 
Alternative Metal is basically Nu Metal, but that term isn't used anymore, though they are still a lot of bands playing that style. As a result, this is a pretty relaxed genre, and could be anything from Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit, to Faith No More or any of Mike Pattons other bands.
 
So yeah, that's it. Discuss, flame me, suggest bands for me to categorize... whatever. For me personally, these are the only six subgenres that are ever needed to sum up all of Heavy Metal.
 
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Edited by Valarius - 17 Nov 2010 at 4:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 5:06am
I agree, the constant emerging of new and more specific genres and the reinterpretation of the features of already established genres really irritates me, too. It's simply impossible to keep up with all those genre labels.

But at the same time, I recognize the human need to categorize things and also the human need for some sort of identity, and I think that all the subgenres that people operate with within certain underground and non-mainstream genres simply just reflect human experiential and social cognition.

Personally, I think that genre label - also specific ones - are useful if they are descriptive; but the problem is that very often very specific genre labels come of as being arrogant fanboy w*nkery, which it probably is in many cases (and which, again, I think, is a reflection of the need for an identity, and identity that one flags by showing one's mastery of all the obscure terms and categories within the type of music in question).

I generally respect other people's genre categorizations because categorization, like anything else, is negotiable and depending on both the individual's and the community's experiences, so I typically stay away from this-band-belongs-to-Xcore-and-not-to-Ycore discussions. I use my own genre tags in my reviews just for the sake of being descriptive (and sometimes to make a friendly parody on general genre w*nkery).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 5:10am
Hmm...I don�t see where you would place the vast amount of black metal acts! I assume it would be under death metal, but there are many differences between those two genres that IMO warrants a seperate black metal genre. I�m sure my Black metal team buddy Vehemency would agree 100% here.
 
On the general concept of having many sub genres on a site like MMA, I actually agree that there shouldn�t be too many subs and for example I would probably merge the Symphonic and the Power metal subs if it was up to me. The idea to have as many subs as we have now is to help guide people though but I sense you feel we�re misguiding instead? Smile.
 
It�s a fine line between guiding and confusing people. I do think most subs included on MMA makes sense though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martindavey87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 5:21am
To be honest I don't mind there being so many subgenres on the website. If that's where the admin people feel certain bands belong, so I'm cool. And like Time Signature said above, it's perfectly normal for people to want to be more specific with their labeling, and to attempt to differentiate their own niche genre.
 
I don't feel having too many categories is misleading or confusing, it just kind of makes things feel more 'cluttered'. As you said, Symphonic Metal bands could easily be placed in Power Metal, or possibly Prog Metal, and I sometimes think of these genres in terms of what a non-Metal fan would think. 'Symphonic Prog Metal with Neoclassical elements'... sure, that's a good description of what a band will sound like, but a non-Metal fan will have no idea. A simple 'Prog Metal' will do fine.
 
Just me trying to keep things simple rather than complicating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 6:31am

Oh and BTW it�s good to see you posting in the forum MartinThumbs Up. I had expected you to come here sooner knowing your activities and metal related reviews on PA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m@x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 6:48am
Reminder for visitors: the system allows ALBUM GENRE TAGGING, the artist genre is a sum of all his album genres.


Being said, with 8000 artists on the site, maybe it's time to re-think and re-org the genre ?

To help visitors, we can make more sub-sub-genres (inclusives in the main sub-genres)  like NWoBHM is to Trad. Heavy Metal.

The first ones that I think need a split or re-org are:
  • Progressive Metal
    • Technical death metal
  • Folk Metal
    • Celtic metal
    • Medieval metal
    • Oriental metal
    • Viking Metal
  • Symphonic Metal
    • Symphonic Black Metal
    • Symphonic Power Metal
    • Symphonic Gothic Metal
    • Cello Metal
The main sub-genre is the umbrella terms and is a sub-genre in itself. But sometimes album can fit better in the sub-sub-genre, best example are OPETH albums.

Let's re discuss it, since the site has take a few steps in content quantity and quality since we last discussed it.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 6:59am
Like UMUR, I think that a lot of subgenres could be confusing, but maybe a couple of more subgenres would be useful.

I think that "technical death metal" would then fit better under th "death metal" genres than the progressive metal genre. But I guess that a problem could be that some death metal is progressive but not necessarily technical (like "Spheres") while other is technical but not necessarily progressive (like "Effigy of the Forgotten). So, I don't know about that. One genre death metal subgenre which I think would be useful would be the "melodic death metal" genre, since it has become firmly established as a recognizable genre as such.

And maybe deathcore could be a subgenre of metalcore or death metal (metal purists would probably prefer it under metalcore).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:20am

I can�t say I support the idea of more subs. Not only will it create a massive amount of work for the collabs re-tagging albums, there will probably also be spend lots of time listening to samples to make sure that re-tag suggestions are valid ( unless we blindly trust the re-tag suggestions). IMO both artist bios and reviews usually explain pretty well how the music sounds. Be it old school, melodic, progressive or technical death metal, it�s still death metal IMO. I�m of the opinion that more subs will confuse rather than help.

By keeping the amount of sub genres to a minimum and thereby keeping the site simple, I also hope to avoid the sometimes time consuming discussions if this or that act is progressive or technical and which sub sub they would fit into the best. Right now the worst thing is to decide if a death/ thrash act is going to be placed in either death or thrash metal or if blackened death metal acts should be placed in either death or black metal and I must say I like the simplicity. It makes collab work easy and I�d rather spend time replacing bad cover artwork and adding lineup info, than spend me time trying to decide which sub sub this or that act belongs to ( it�s especially a problem if I haven�t listened to the artist, and let�s face it, it�s impossible for team members to have heard every artist present in the sub(s) they are responsible for).
 
With that said I�ve heard quite a few people suggesting additional sub genres, so there might be a more general consensus among the users of the site that we need them and of course I�ll have to bow tothatSmile.


Edited by UMUR - 17 Nov 2010 at 8:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martindavey87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:30am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Oh and BTW it�s good to see you posting in the forum MartinThumbs Up. I had expected you to come here sooner knowing your activities and metal related reviews on PA.
 
Thank you. I did register with this site when it was created, but until recently I didn't really have much time for messge boards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martindavey87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:34am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Be it old school, melodic, progressive or technical death metal, it�s still death metal IMO.
 
This is pretty much the point of my original post.
 
I hope I haven't caused any problems on this website, as I don't mind things the way they are, and if new subgenres are added/artists shuffled about etc, then obviously I'll leave it to everyone else and I'll go along with it.
 
The six genres thing is really my own personal way of putting bands in different categaries, and I thought it'd just make for a decent discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:34am

^yes I noticed that you registered as early as in April. I see you�ve already written quite a few reviews here on MMA. You do know that you�re more than welcome to copy/ paste your reviews from PA right? Just edit them to leave out any references to PA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martindavey87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:36am
That's exactly what I did when I joined. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:41am
Discussions are healthy, I�m glad you brought it up. So no you�re not causing problems, just contributing to the site and we always encourage thatThumbs Up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UMUR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 8:42am
Originally posted by Valarius Valarius wrote:

That's exactly what I did when I joined. Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 11:54am
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Right now the worst thing is to decide if a death/ thrash act is going to be placed in either death or thrash metal or if blackened death metal acts should be placed in either death or black metal and I must say I like the simplicity. It makes collab work easy and I�d rather spend time replacing bad cover artwork and adding lineup info, than spend me time trying to decide which sub sub this or that act belongs to ( it�s especially a problem if I haven�t listened to the artist, and let�s face it, it�s impossible for team members to have heard every artist present in the sub(s) they are responsible for).


I agree, and that's why I think that, if new subgenres are introduced, it should be a very small number, at they should reflect generally acknowledged genres (so, no doomcore or melodic Christian screamo thrash or whatever and the like, but melodic death metal or deathcore would make sense to me). I tend to agree that progressive, technical, old school, brutal etc. death metal are essentially still death metal and I think that symphonic black metal is essentially just black metal, and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m@x Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2010 at 12:04pm
Thanks for your replies.

I want to make sure you guys understant that I am not "willing to" add more sub-genres,  I just want to give the opportunity to re-think about it since the site has grow since we last discuss it.

We need to think about the new visitors and how can we help him discover new metal music through MMA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Certif1ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 3:20am
Must admit I get baffled by the huge number of genres and subgenres, but I think there's a definite place for Proto metal, e.g. bands like Blue Cheer et al, who aren't strictly metal, but quite obviously lie at the roots of it.

The other "genre" I wholeheartedly support is NWoBHM, which is an important landmark in musical history.

As I pointed out in my definition, it's not a "genre" per se, because the various acts produced such a bewilderingly vast array of different musical styles, creating all the roots of the metal genres we now accept today.

It's a fascinating "bucket" - the more I explore it, the more I realise what those guys actually did at the time without even realising what they were doing. They were just making the music they wanted to make, without classification (apart from the "heavy" bit) or boundaries, and there's everything from Progressive (Praying Mantis, Bleak House) to glam (Girl) to technical (Raven) to traditional (Holocaust) to punk crossover (Lightning Raiders) to black metal (Venom) and thrash metal (Jaguar) in there.

Must admit, I've never been convinced by "Alternative" metal, though... it's either metal or it ain't... Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Angry Scotsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 3:39am
Yeah, I get pretty peeved at the seemingly hundreds of sub genres out there, (some seem to be like one band!) and some so ridiculous.

For me personally, this is how my metal is categorized.
There is:
Heavy Metal        Which I guess would be "traditional" including NWoBHM (Which I don't think really exists)
Thrash Metal
Death Metal
Black Metal
Prog Metal
Alt Metal

If I'm not quite sure of which sub genre to put it in I bump it to the next one, or with some bands like Pantera and LoG where I had no real clue, as well as some metalcore bands....they are just labeled "metal"

As for folk metal, avant, technical I just group it all as "prog metal"
Melodic, tech, brutal etc death metal are all "death metal" 

Oh, I forgot about Power Metal and Industrial Metal. I have little of each so its not an issue, but for the few I do they have those sub genres as well.

Consolidation used to piss me off because I NEEDED to organize and specify, now I love the simplicity of it.
Tis all metal Rawks


Edited by The Angry Scotsman - 18 Nov 2010 at 3:42am
Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer and Testament. The real Big Four of thrash metal!



Listen to doom metal, worship Satan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Time Signature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 3:45am
I like the genres that we have now, and I hope none of them will be eliminated. It's true that alt. metal and metalcore are a bit bucket-likenand maybe they could do with some internal organization through a couple of subsubgenres at some point in the future. And I also hope to see an additional hard rock genre at some point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vehemency Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2010 at 3:56am
By the way, if/when we are going to add new subsub genres, it would be the best if we add only one or maybe two at max at a time. No big updates at once, so that we can focus on discussing and working on one subject more effeciently, and see how it all goes with a new subsub.
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I�m sure my Black metal team buddy Vehemency would agree 100% here.
Indeed. LOL
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