Hard Rock and Heavy Metal
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Category: Metal Music Lounges
Forum Name: Metal Music Lounge
Forum Description: General metal music discussions (no polls)
URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41
Printed Date: 22 Dec 2024 at 5:46am
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Topic: Hard Rock and Heavy Metal
Posted By: Windhawk
Subject: Hard Rock and Heavy Metal
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 12:18am
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Where do you draw the line between what's considered hard rock and heavy metal? Back in the day Steppenwolf was considered a heavy metal band for instance - cue the immortal line from Born to be Wild: "Heavy Metal Thunder". I see that in the database here quite a few acts that many would describe as hard rock (Blue Oyster Cult for instance) are added in, hence the question. |
Replies:
Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 12:27am
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I think that it is a certainly good discussion. The player might not be specifying the genre. There might be a part where the listener and the fan specify the genre by thinking overall, too. |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 12:43am
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Oh, Slayer and other "modern" acts are indisputable. But Aerosmith are added in here, Blue Oyster Cult, Deep Purple. Should we also expect Steppenwolf - or perhaps Nazareth or even Jethro Tull? The latter of which actually earned a metal wards prize in the late 80's ;-) |
Posted By: Kazuhiro
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 12:55am
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Yes. Certainly. It is felt that they are Hard Rock even if the sound that Deep Purple and Aerosmith are intense is taken. It is described that the borderline of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal is vague when examining it with Wikipedia. It is said that Blues Rock is a keynote in Hard Rock. There might be a part that derives on the boundary of Punk Rock, too. Can you apply it here as an item of "HR/HM"?Perhaps, it thinks this site to be a gathering of information on "Metal" with the large heart. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 6:34am
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I asked M@x to add BOC, but am not particularly convinced about the 'traditional HM' tag. BOC, just like Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin, are not really heavy metal, though they may have influenced the genre. Anyway, if I may offer a suggestion, another metal site called the BNR Metal Pages has a Hard Rock category for acts such as Aerosmith, BOC; DP, LZ, AC/DC, Thin Lizzy and the like - check here if you want: http://www.bnrmetal.com/v2/genre.php?ID=H - http://www.bnrmetal.com/v2/genre.php?ID=H On the other hand, in Traditional Metal they have, among many others, Judas Priest and UFO (the latter a bit of an odd choice IMHO): http://www.bnrmetal.com/v2/genre.php?ID== - http://www.bnrmetal.com/v2/genre.php?ID== |
Posted By: bonnek
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 7:22am
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BNR Metal Pages! Man I have spent internet time there. On the issue, metal starts with Black Sabbath, followed by Priest and everything after. Zeppelin, Heep, Purple and the bands they inspired in the 70's weren't evil enough.  |
Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 11:51am
| Black Sabbath, Budgie, Metallica, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Led Zep, G n R, and so on. |
Posted By: IknowSATAN
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 11:59am
Hm ? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/IknowSATAN/?chartstyle=Awesome35"> 
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PROGMAN wrote:Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2010 at 12:36pm
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I have a similar question regarding the term Alternative Metal. Is this the same as Nu Metal, or is it an overlapping or entirely different category? ------------- 
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 5:03am
| I've always thought of them as one and the same. Hard rock (Purple, Sabbath, etc) can be seen as the origins of what we now call heavy metal. |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2010 at 5:05am
Yeah, nothing else in the 70s was quite as evil as Sabbath was. Zeppelin, Heep, Purple, etc, were heavy, yes, but not really evil.
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2010 at 7:58am
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Seems easy enough when you listen, but putting it into words is kinda tough...
To me, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRwLGwF1NTI - this from Dust in 1972 is "proper" Heavy Metal, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhCZ1eFX63g - while this , from their debut of 1971 is Hard Rock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzNn2Wn3NB0 - This track from Jeronimo sounds like metal, while http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbQSoA0pSF4 - this sounds like Hard Rock.
Bands like Deep Purple and Led Zep played a few tunes that hinted at metal, but were really rooted in Hard Rock, with kinda progressive leanings - touches of classical in Purple's case and touches of folk in Zeppelin's, but no serious excursions into territory outside of pentatonic blues-based Hard Rock - with the possible exception of "Child in Time", which was plundered wholesale from jazz/psych rock group It's a Beautiful Day.
On a simple, superficial level, one difference between Hard Rock and Heavy Metal is in the lyrics. Hair Metal apart, metal tends to stay away from songs about relationships and love, preferring a more cult-driven thing. That doesn't mean the same as occult or evil, more that it tends to be about the cult of heavy metal and all the trappings, e.g. "Denim and Leather", "Heavy Metal Mania", "Rainbow Warrior".
I also think that Hard Rock has more "swing" to it - metal does not swing, it swaggers and stomps.
Kinda suggests that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJN-wrtuWOg - Wishbone Ash should be honorary metal heads... but that music sounds like Hard Rock to me...
 ...anyway, I wrote a long thread on the History of metal over at Music Banter a while back, and metal did NOT start with Steppenwolf's "Heavy Metal Thunder" - another band had already used the name more than a year earlier, and that band was not only the first band that Jimi Hendrix jammed with as a newcomer to England, but a band which influenced Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Blue Oyster Cult and Judas Priest. http://www.musicbanter.com/rock-metal/44034-history-heavy-metal-thread.html - Enjoy .
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Posted By: FusionKing
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2010 at 12:21pm
| I don't think Sabbath, Deep Purple or Zeppelin are Heavy Metal at all... too many bluesy and proggy moments in all of them. As far as I can see, Heavy Metal begins with Judas Priest and Motorhead. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2010 at 2:27pm
As far as metal beginning with Priest and Motorhead, again, I'd like that to be true - but Priest's first album was actually very proggy in nature - and suspiciously like Black Sabbath in many places (hardly surprising, given that both bands were from Birmingham, UK, and produced by Rodger Bain). Their "metal" style didn't start until their 2nd or 3rd album, and the whole style was rooted in that established by The Sweet (another Birmingham band) a couple of years earlier, who evolved their heavy style mainly, it would seem, from fellow Brummies Slade. The Sweet were also minorly proggy on the title track of "Fanny Adams" and a few select other tracks.
Motorhead have always declared themselves rock and roll - and the music would seem to back that up to a point. That point stops at Motorhead's unique sound (I say unique, but it clearly evolved from the Pink Fairies and Hawkwind) - which has rarely been emulated by other bands, except maybe nods and winks in Kirk Hammett's solos, etc. Given it's so "unique", it didn't really inspire other metal bands - unlike Priest/Sweet, whose riffs are prevalent in almost any NWoBHM band you care to mention.
I think Metal began with The Scorpions and UFO, if it didn't begin with The Sweet - and the Sabbath influences came in much later, along with punk influences (The Damned particularly, who released the very first punk album - before the Vibrators or the Sex Pistols - and also had the speed that would evolve into thrash).
While some earlier bands had "traits" - Spooky Tooth had the name and the underlying Cream-inherited style, Blue Cheer had the volume, Steppenwolf have the (misplaced) fame, Coven had the occult and devil's horns, Screaming Lord Sutch had the theatricalities, and bands such as Dust and Jeronimo accidentally hit on the sound a couple of brief times, The Scorps and UFO had Uli Roth and Michael Schenker - two of the most formative and definitive metal guitarists ever to rub shoulders with Gary Moore.
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Posted By: PROGMAN
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2010 at 7:56pm
| Grunge has some heavy metal influence even if it is stretchy from a metal point of view? |
Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2010 at 8:57pm
| I think Sabbath invented just about every metal subgenre, personally. Name a genre, they have a song for it. Doom metal? Most certainly. 'Hand of Doom', 'Black Sabbath'. Thrash metal? 'Children of the Grave', 'Symptom of the Universe'. Symphonic metal? 'Megalomania'. Prog metal? Most of the album Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. |
Posted By: MAVIIIVAM
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2010 at 3:24pm
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Hmmm, I see Deep Purple in all forms that have been mentioned, Prog, Blues, Funk, Jazz/Fusion, hard Rock and Metal. Think of some of the "Riffage" Blackmore and Lord would Harmonize with, and that the songs would turn into alot of different catagories, thats why I always classify them as a Prog or Post-Prog Metal Band, seeing that they "progressed" the idea of Hard Rock at that time. I wonder, as I dont have that specific memory as a Kid then, was the moniker "Heavy Metal" even used, I remember some of this music termed as "Acid Rock" as well, but that may be ignorance on part with Critics that didnt know what to properly call it. As far as early Metal or "seeds" go, lets not forget MC5, Blue Cheer and Iggy Pop and the Stooges, not only Hard Rock/Heavy Metal, but the Punk Movement (Remember, Punk is not percise, its meant to be "No holds bared" and raw, and its structure is built around Rock and Roll Blues, that why "Nazi Punk" makes no sense to me  ). But Sabbath are definately an early form of Metal (there is debate that "Pentagram" was the 1st though with the brand of Doom Metal- the U.S. Band). And its wild that Iron Maiden when they started were very influenced by Punk, and you can here it on their debut. Just like from Punk and Hard Rock/Heavy Metal to "Crossover" to Thrash. Its gotta' come from somewhere kids  .Just my opinion on it all .By the way, I have a REALLY hard time with the term "Hair Metal", God I hate that, that means "Anyone" with long hair is considered that? Grunge had long-hairs too, it doesnt seem like a catagory, just a mocking of us with long hair and a fashion statement . . . blaaaAAAAaHHH!  but I degress (or deflate). ------------- "If you're happy to be an Ant in the Sand Box, you're welcome to it!" -Forbidden For Progressive Metal and Prog Rock, come visit, request songs and explore at PrOgulus.com |
Posted By: goskoski
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 5:24pm
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Sometimes, it is difficult to hear if the song is hardrock or metal.
Rock music is vocal music, while metal music is guitar music. If the vocals dominated and are the most important instrument, then it is rock music, but if the guitars dominate and the song depends on the guitars then it is metal music. The manner the guitars are played is not important here.
If the drumset is the most important instrument of the song then it is beat music. If the bass guitar is the dominating instrument then it would be groove music such as Punk, RocknRoll, Blues, or Paso Doble.
In case of hardrock the vocals are the dominating instrument, while the guitars are just supplementary instruments or minor instruments. The word "hard" is referring to the voice which is rough and hard, while the distorted guitars are just there to emphasize
A clue to hear the different is to listen to karaoke versions of a song. If the karaoke version can be used as an instrumental song that does not need vocals then it is metal, but if the karaoke does not sound like an instrumental song and the missing of the vocals renders the song incomplete then it is rock music.
However, it you remove the guitars and leave the vocals then you hear that the song sounds complete because the song depends on the vocals, but if we remove the guitars from a metal song then it becomes an incomplete song.
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Posted By: goskoski
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 5:28pm
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The mixture of rock and steel is called Concrete. Maybe, we should call it concrete music. Just kidding. |
Posted By: Pelata
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 7:50pm
The Hard Rock/Heavy Metal debate is one that always results in some seriously subjective genre-splitting...I don't know if I even wanna get started...LOL! 
------------- http://www.facebook.com/FinalSignOfficial" rel="nofollow - FINAL SIGN - US Power Metal |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 8:20pm
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My general definition for metal is such as this: 1. There needs to be at least one distorted instrument (generally stringed instrument, this can be anything from an electric guitar to a synth patch to a distorted cello) 2. It has to be based on riffs. This separates it from punk, which is more based on fast drums and several bars of abrasive chords. 3. It is not based on elements found in pop music such as catchyness or ability to sing along. It can have pop elements, just not a ton. This generally works for me, even though I'm more of a know-it-when-I-hear-it person. The definition isn't perfect though. For example, Within Temptation's "The Heart of Everything" and "Addicted" by Devin Townsend wouldn't qualify by rule 3. ------------- Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 8:57pm
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"Concrete music" is already taken
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 1:34am
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My first rule of thumb is simply a general "Does it sound more like metal or rock?" - that's a good place to start, and it's usually guitar tone that gives the game away, or riff styling - rock will tend towards 12-bar, with a kind of "swagger" or swing. Metal tends to avoid swing, going for sharper, more angular riffs.
Next I'll listen to the lyrics. Rock is deeply rooted in rock and roll, which is a famous euphamism - so the lyrics tend to be connected with, shall we say, relationships.
Metal lyrics tend to fall into three categories that rock might touch on, but generally doesn't dwell on as much;
1. Non-conformist, including satanistic, occult, or simple "Up yours" to society in general (from the punk root)
2. Epic fantasy, generally of a dark nature.
3. Nihilism - the denial of meaning in existence, to a greater or lesser degree.
Thirdly, metal tends to be more aggressive as a result of the guitar tones, riffs and lyrical content - although rock can be aggressive too, it tends to be a kind of macho aggression - which is probably why Glam gets a hard time from troo metal fans. Metal's aggression seems less animalistic and more cerebral.
Finally, metal has an unfortunate tendency to take itself seriously.
None of these things are "defining elements", just general differences I've noticed.
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Posted By: goskoski
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 2:01am
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When I record a hard n heavy CD, then I include Metal Ballads, AoR, Thrash, Death, or traditional metal. It is the variety of styles that makes Hard n Heavy interesting for me. I just recorded a DVD full of songs from my collection. It includes Extreme metal such as Catamenia, Kataklysm, Protector, or Exodus, but also metal ballads from Nightwish and Warlock. The song Lesson to Violence of Exodus is for example followed by the song Lonely by Crimson Glory. Sometimes, I focus on lesser known bands.
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 11:03pm
Point well taken. Though it doesn't use riffs  ------------- Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 11:07pm
by these definitions Jean Louis is metal INFORM THE AVANT-METAL TEAM! |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: 31 Jan 2011 at 11:11pm
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^I don't think I'll ever make a definition that even I can agree with. And if I could it wouldn't align with this website, because there are a lot of bands that this site accepts that I would outright reject.
------------- Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want. |