Modern or Vanilla?
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Topic: Modern or Vanilla?
Posted By: bartosso
Subject: Modern or Vanilla?
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 5:32pm
Besides voting I encourage you to continue the discussion about "vanilla progressive metal" being derogatory or not, and what it actually means.
Is it okay to call a regressive band progressive ?
Or maybe progressive metal has become a proper noun?
Why do we even use a tag like that if it can mean so many different things?
These are questions for today! Now discuss
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Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 5:51pm
There is nothing progressive about the Dream Theater school of prog metal any more.
It's also boring and tasteless, for the most part.
edit: I don't intend to direct the above at any particular band, nor accuse any band (Dream Theater included) of adhering to what I refer to out of convenience as the "Dream Theater school." There, that oughta keep 'em off my back.
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Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 6:06pm
Without that edit your post would look very bold and provocative indeed
I agree with you, obviously. I'd even dare to say that even DT wasn't all that progressive. They just applied the rules of progressive rock to metal. So they basically made prog rock heavier.
That might be why people end up calling "post" everything that's actually progressive.
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 6:36pm
Today progressive is a style of music, not necessarily applied to artists who invent the wheel. ...as for the question about which type I prefer, I�d say a bit of everything...if it�s good it�s good, if it�s bad it�s bad...just like it is with every other style or artist I enjoy...
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Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 8:17pm
So, the answer to the second question is yes - progressive metal has lost its original meaning. It's quite misleading though, we still call some genuinely progressive bands this way even though they doesn't sound anything like classic prog metal bands.
And yeah, I know what you mean Jonas, one can't like a whole genre, usually we just like some bands that tend to be classified as given kind of metal. I think what we can like or dislike about a sub-genre as a whole are its key features. I, for example, don't like classic prog metal because it tends to be focused on virtuosity at the expense of atmosphere(other than the cheesy one created with keys), spontaneity and creativity. There are some commendable exceptions(Distorted Harmony, Riverside) but I still think it's one of the most consistent and repetitive sub-genres of metal music. My question is why?
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 8:38pm
When we're talking about progressive metal or rock, we're not really talking about rock or metal music that 'progresses' the genre forward anymore. It's a style, just like doom metal, death metal, black metal, folk rock, etc... its name implies something that isn't necessarily true. Of course, it's an added bonus if a prog metal band is pushing the genre forward, but that's not a requirement for being labeled as 'prog metal'.
With that in mind, it really boils down to what band we're talking about for my preferences. My favorite prog metal act is Pain of Salvation, but I'm not really sure if they would be 'traditional' or 'modern' - kind of a bridge between the two IMO. I'll say that I like both equally.
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2013 at 2:52am
Triceratopsoil wrote:
There is nothing progressive about the Dream Theater school of prog metal any more.
It's also boring and tasteless, for the most part.
edit: I don't intend to direct the above at any particular band, nor accuse any band (Dream Theater included) of adhering to what I refer to out of convenience as the "Dream Theater school." There, that oughta keep 'em off my back. |
We all have our own tastes Colin, I certainly won't deride yours or anyone elses for that matter.
That said, I like music for what it is, in any genre.
Personally, I find this "post" stuff boring, tasteless, unemotive and in the most part twiddly nonsense.
Just like the worst forms of jazz, it just gets under my skin and/or sends me to sleep.
There is the odd exception, just like any genre, just not that many.
There, I said it
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2013 at 3:45am
bartosso wrote:
So, the answer to the second question is yes - progressive metal has lost its original meaning. It's quite misleading though, we still call some genuinely progressive bands this way even though they doesn't sound anything like classic prog metal bands.
And yeah, I know what you mean Jonas, one can't like a whole genre, usually we just like some bands that tend to be classified as given kind of metal. I think what we can like or dislike about a sub-genre as a whole are its key features. I, for example, don't like classic prog metal because it tends to be focused on virtuosity at the expense of atmosphere(other than the cheesy one created with keys), spontaneity and creativity. There are some commendable exceptions(Distorted Harmony, Riverside) but I still think it's one of the most consistent and repetitive sub-genres of metal music. My question is why? |
Hmmm
The world would be a sad place if we all felt the same, I guess.
For the answer to your first para, head off to PA where there have been numerous threads over the years about what is prog and what isn't and what is prog now and what wasn't etc etc.
The answer will be a continuing debate without a definitive answer.
For the record I fucking hate the term "Vanilla". To me it is a derogatory term.
I wonder what the "post" brigade would say if I continually quoted the likes of Isis, Pelican and Neurosis as "Vanilla" bands? It would rub people up the wrong way, the same as people who quote it with reference to traditional prog metal bands.
So we now have the Sabs as vanilla metal, Maiden as vanilla power or Carcass as vanilla death bands. Get my point?
It is interesting to see a different point of view regarding what you hear with classic PM. To me your points would relate to the sub genre I quoted above
Thankfully, for Trad PM there are a vast number of bands and fans that agree with me.
De gustibus non est disputandum
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Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2013 at 7:49pm
^ Don't get me wrong Steve, I don't mean to criticize your taste (or anyone else's for that matter) - I respect it and consider you to be an expert in the field - I just want a constructive discussion about the genre's name as an extremely self-contradictory term. I consider tags to be a tool that helps us classify music and browse through similar artists we may like. This tag doesn't work like that by any means. It just indicates that a given band is progressive... or it's similar to Dream Theater without being progressive at all.
Here's what I think. The very name - "progressive" - is very unfortunate and it's one of main reasons behind many prog metal fans feeling superior to fans of other genres. I think the problem is of axiological nature - "progressive" is a positive word by nature while all other genres' names are neutral. So, in other words, something that's progressive just can't be bad because progress is a value in itself. We all know it's not true though and that's why "progressive" sucks as a name for a genre of music.
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 3:50am
bartosso wrote:
^ Don't get me wrong Steve, I don't mean to criticize your taste (or anyone else's for that matter) - I respect it and consider you to be an expert in the field - I just want a constructive discussion about the genre's name as an extremely self-contradictory term. I consider tags to be a tool that helps us classify music and browse through similar artists we may like. This tag doesn't work like that by any means. It just indicates that a given band is progressive... or it's similar to Dream Theater without being progressive at all.
Here's what I think. The very name - "progressive" - is very unfortunate and it's one of main reasons behind many prog metal fans feeling superior to fans of other genres. I think the problem is of axiological nature - "progressive" is a positive word by nature while all other genres' names are neutral. So, in other words, something that's progressive just can't be bad because progress is a value in itself. We all know it's not true though and that's why "progressive" sucks as a name for a genre of music.
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I hear and understand what you say Bartosz.
Maybe a good way to start the debate would be to come up with an alternative first. How would you differentiate between a "progressive" band and one that isn't?
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Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 9:02am
Colt wrote:
bartosso wrote:
^ Don't get me wrong Steve, I don't mean to criticize your taste (or anyone else's for that matter) - I respect it and consider you to be an expert in the field - I just want a constructive discussion about the genre's name as an extremely self-contradictory term. I consider tags to be a tool that helps us classify music and browse through similar artists we may like. This tag doesn't work like that by any means. It just indicates that a given band is progressive... or it's similar to Dream Theater without being progressive at all.
Here's what I think. The very name - "progressive" - is very unfortunate and it's one of main reasons behind many prog metal fans feeling superior to fans of other genres. I think the problem is of axiological nature - "progressive" is a positive word by nature while all other genres' names are neutral. So, in other words, something that's progressive just can't be bad because progress is a value in itself. We all know it's not true though and that's why "progressive" sucks as a name for a genre of music. |
I hear and understand what you say Bartosz.
Maybe a good way to start the debate would be to come up with an alternative first. How would you differentiate between a "progressive" band and one that isn't?
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That's a very good question. As I said, using a positively marked term was not the best idea ever (my guess is that the guy who coined the term was not a linguist ) and if I could, I'd rename not only progressive metal but whole progressive rock. My alternative would be the word "eclectic", currently used as a name for a sub-genre of progressive rock. Being eclectic is not a value in itself, and besides sounding a bit snooty, it's a better option IMO. Most of all though, that's what prog rock was really about - being eclectic, combining classical, folk and electronic music with rock. Words like "symphonic", "folk" or "electronic" would further indicate what's the main focus of the band.
Consequently, instead of being a symphonic progressive rock band, Yes would be a symphonic eclectic rock band, Dream Theater would be a symphonic eclectic metal band, Jethro Tull would be an eclectic folk rock band, Opeth would be an eclectic death metal band etc. This annoying clash would be once and for all gone. All those bands wouldn't have to be progressive - you can be eclectic without being progressive anymore as being eclectic doesn't imply progress and what's even more important it is neutral.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 9:48am
I am of the same mindset as Steve on this one. Essentially, traditional prog metal is a style of music that I like to listen to. Sure maybe it isn't all that original from band to band as they all play in that "Dream Theater style", but when it is a style that one enjoys I really don't see it as a problem. To be honest, is it really that much different than the bands that are considered "progressive" that essential just play in that "Opeth style".
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Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2013 at 12:20pm
While I certainly understand the argument that copying Dream Theater isn't being progressive in the sense that it originally meant, I'm fine with calling such artists progressive metal, for the simply reason that I see genre tags to be identifiers on what sort of sound an artist plays. Two bands that sound alike belong to the same genre IMO. A rule against that for considering bands progressive metal will only ultimately result in confusion, especially with those new to metal (or of course progressive rock).
On the other hand I do think the term progressive is losing its meaning, but not for the reasons stated here. What's been getting to me is how often metalheads seem to think albums out of other genres that do something a little different from the norm are progressive. You want evidence? Go look on Rate Your Music's genre vote pages, some users there vote progressive metal on every other album.
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Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2013 at 3:45pm
rushfan4 wrote:
I am of the same mindset as Steve on this one. Essentially, traditional prog metal is a style of music that I like to listen to. Sure maybe it isn't all that original from band to band as they all play in that "Dream Theater style", but when it is a style that one enjoys I really don't see it as a problem. To be honest, is it really that much different than the bands that are considered "progressive" that essential just play in that "Opeth style". |
The double standard you're talking about is another effect of this sucky misnomer I was talking about in my previous post. I'm not saying that bands playing in "Opeth style" are progressive. That's the point! This word simply doesn't make sense in the context of music.
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Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: 01 May 2013 at 1:48am
Both
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