Progressive / Avant Garde Metal
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Forum Name: Help us improve the site
Forum Description: Help us improve the forums, and the site as a whole
URL: http://www.MetalMusicArchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5862
Printed Date: 22 Dec 2024 at 12:39pm
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Topic: Progressive / Avant Garde Metal
Posted By: Bosh66
Subject: Progressive / Avant Garde Metal
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 11:30am
| Just curious. Do you guys have any process in place to ensure any progressive metal (widest context) on or added to PA is added here too? Same the other way around - there are bands on MMA tagged as progressive or experimental that aren't on PA. Is this a deliberate policy to keep the sites separate?Perhaps you have differet criteria? Seems like you're missing a trick here if you could add to both sites where the genres overlap? Would reduce your respective workloads and ensure that experimental / prog metal lisitings for both sites was as comprehensive as possible. |
Replies:
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 12:22pm
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That�s initially how I thought it would work, but apparently PA and MMA (and JMA who is similar in style to MMA) are built on different platforms that don�t work well together. So while some of us are also members on PA (personally I�ve been a member of the PMT over at PA for a while a couple of years back in time) and PA and MMA share owners/webmasters, the sites are two completely different entities (even though I like to refer to the sites as sister sites). So to answer your question in short. No there is no collaboration between PA and MMA. So yeah there are probably a lot of acts on PA that hasn�t been added to MMA yet and likewise the other way around. ...one of the things I don�t get is why the three sites aren�t promoted more on the other sites (preferably on the frontpage of all three sites). Lots of progressive rock fans love metal that�s not necessarily progressive and and could have an interest in MMA and I know that a couple of the regulars here love jazz and spend time on JMA. Just examples of how some people could benefit from travelling between the three sites. Being a member on one of the sites doesn�t necessarily exclude being a member on the other two. Personally I�m a member on all three sites. ------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 4:19pm
Exactly, that's what puzzles me too, among other things  .------------- http://shrineofllyria.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://shrineofllyria.blogspot.com/ |
UMUR wrote:Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 4:43pm
| Really interesting stuff, and I guess it's early days still. If an album was on PA in tech/extreme and noted as prog doom, would you reassess for MMA or just accept the PMTs judgement? Would it work the other way? Like many "progheads" my first love was metal (and I still love non-prog metal) but over the years increasingly listened to prog. There's bands I've already found on this site which would imo fit well on PA. Do I go the usual suggest bands route? That's proably a question for PA. More pertinently, how to we get the large number of metal bands into MMA that are currently archived on PA? Suggest them individually? |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2013 at 7:36pm
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My opinion on the matter doesn't isn't entirely complimentary toward most of the PA prog metal team, so I won't share it here
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 12:05am
^ Yeah better keep it safe Colin...------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 1:57am
Except for what UMUR calls vanilla progressive metal, which quite often fits the MMA progressive metal-genre perfectly, there is some degree of reassessment if a PA-artist gets added to the MMA. For instance, the PA tech/extreme metal genre conflates a number of different extreme metal genres (like black, thrash, death, grind, deathcore, etc.) for which the MMA typically will have separate genres. So, if a progressive death metal band is included under extreme/tech progressive metal in the PA, it is likely to be included under death metal in the MMA, and a progressive grindcore band is likely to appear under grindcore in the MMA, or, if it has a lot of avant-garde features, it might appear under avant-garde metal, although the PA had it as extreme/tech progressive metal. Also, a heavy prog or a neo-prog or crossover prog or whatever artist in the PA might end up under hard rock in the MMA, or, if metallic enough, under progressive metal or even traditional metal. So, yes, there definitely is a degree of reassessment.
While I, also enjoying a lot of prog rock, have a user on PA, I rarely log on and I rarely interact with the community there for reasons which are probably similar to the not-so-favorable opinion that Triceratopsoil alludes to. I would imagine that the way to get MMA prog metal acts added to the PA is to suggest them. Personally, I have stopped suggesting artists for inclusion into the PA because it often takes forever for them to be added or rejected, but I imagine that's the way to go. I really don't know, because I don't know what their addition procedure is these days.
That would be one way to go about it. Suggesting them in bundles would be fine, too, but then the best thing is to sort the bundles into categories based on the genre you would like to suggest artists for (simple to make it easier for the collabs). So, if you want to suggest a bunch of vanilla progressive metal artists to the MMA and a bunch of progressive black metal artists and, say, a bunch of progressive doom artists, you make one post in which you suggest the progressive metal ones and include "progressive metal" in the title of the post (like "Progressive metal suggestions" or something like that). Then you make a separate post for the progressive black metal bands, calling it "Black metal suggestions", and one called something like "Doom metal suggestions" for the doom metal bands. ------------- 
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Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 2:28am
| Cheers. Answers the questions nicely. The set up here with genres makes a lot more sense too. I'd rather see progressive black metal bands in one place (in Black Metal) than split between 3 or 4 genres as on PA (although MMA stick more eclectic BM bands like Thy Catafalque in another sub (AG) too). Ever thought of bringing all the djenty bands from Messhuggah to Periphery to Gru / Cloudkicker etc. together as a sub sub of prog metal (math metal?) given it is a distinctive movement (albeit not as significant as NWoBHM)? Just a thought. Anyway, I'll round up some more suggestions and start firing 'em your way! |
Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 2:35am
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We�ve discussed the possibility of further sub sub genres like NWoBHM, but haven�t come to an agreement on the subject yet. Personally I�d like to keep things as simple as possible, without too many sub sub genres. I think it�s confusing to newcommers.
More sub genres will also make it harder for Collabs to decide where an artist belongs. It�s hard enough as it is IMO. Some of the more eclectic artists are a pain in the ass to place.
...oh and for the record I only use the term vanilla progressive metal to quickly explain to people the difference between the Dream Theater "school" of progressive metal and the extreme metal version(s) of the progressive metal sub. I don�t use the term as a negative laden term. Actually I�ve stopped using the term completely after I found out how much it pisses Steve off. I�m afraid he�ll kick my ass .------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 2:54am
Ok on the sub-subs. I think they're useful, but I see your point. Vanilla prog metal tells it as it is, and is ok by me - although if Steve is gonna kick off, I hate the freaking term 
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 4:02am
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You know, out of strawberry, chocolate, and vanilla ice-cream, I prefer
vanilla.To me 'vanilla prog metal' is not a negatively laden term, so I
won't kill anyone for using it. As for sub-subs, I am in support of sub-subs for distinct genres, and wouldn't mind seeing a specific sub-sub for melodeath, and I wouldn't mind a djent sub-sub, too (although there are many segments within the metal community who refuse to see djent as a genre). -------------
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 7:53am
| The origins of the term "djent" refer specifically to a guitar tone, irrespective of genre. For that reason, many members of the site (myself included) would take issue with the addition of that subgenre |
Posted By: adg211288
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 7:58am
And there are more widely accepted genres that don't have a distinct sub on the site that should be prioritised, if any new subs are added. ------------- Earn Money Online (NOT a scam): https://premium.gg2u.org?referrer=adg211288" rel="nofollow - GG2U https://adamsfilmcorner.quora.com/" rel="nofollow - Adam's Film Corner on Quora |
Posted By: Bosh66
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 8:14am
This is true. However, there is a clear and strong commonality between a large number of progressive / experimental metal bands who employ a "math" approach to their music in terms of complexity and sound. Just don't call it djent, given the opposition to that term. In my opinion, of course!
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Posted By: Colt
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 9:45am
ROFL! ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 11:10am
The term 'jazz' also has origins that have nothing to do with a musical genre, but it has become a genre term now. Likewise, 'djent' has become, or is becoming, a term used for an aesthetic which an increasing number of people have started to perceive as a genre-defining feature. So, to be honest, I do not really buy the etymology-argument against djent as a genre - simply because of the complexity of language and linguistic signification - and genre-terming is a process of linguistic signification. Also, any feature can be given salience as a genre-defining feature - we see this with shock rock, for instance, where the visual aspect has become the defining feature regardless of what the music sounds like. In human cognition in general, it is actually pretty much a normal thing to establish categories on the basis of just one feature, and place all experiences in the category that share that feature (even if they have nothing else in common). I don't see why this categorization process should not apply to categories of music. It's just a general fact of human cognition. That is why I, unlike many other metalheads, am not dismissive towards djent as a genre based on a guitar tone and, while I am not going to argue for it, I would never take issue against it if it were introduced as a subgenre. -------------
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 12:10pm
| The term 'jazz' is also about 100 years older than the term 'djent.' I don't feel that there is a well-defined style of music accompanying what gets refered to as djent, and in my opinion it is just thrown there as an easy classification - similarly to how anything with slight "trippy" elements is instantly referred to as 'stoner metal' regardless of what style of metal it is based in. |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2013 at 2:16pm
That just goes to show how linguistic labels can catch on as genre terms. 'Jazz' wasn't even used with reference to music originally, but now it is a genre term.
All genre labels serve the purpose of easy classification - even in cases where there is a well-defined style of music behind the label. Chances are that the 'djent' label will eventually help define a genre based on the guitar tone and riff types that are referred to as 'djent' nowadays. And, again, it is not uncommon that categories are established on the basis of just one or two features. Your stoner metal-case is actually a good example of this process being common in relation to music genres, too. Personally, I do think that there are huge differences between the acts that people classify as djent (although I think that I have identified the elements that the 'djent' label are associated with) and I experience what other people call stoner metal pretty much the same way that you do. However, it is a fact that some people operate with 'djent' and 'stoner metal' as genre labels, so those people experience the 'djent'-elements and the 'trippy'-elements as salient enough to serve as focal points of two genres. -------------
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Posted By: UMUR
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 6:14am
 ------------- http://www.lyngby-boldklub.dk/" rel="nofollow - Forever TRUE - Forever BLUE! https://rateyourmusic.com/~UMUR" rel="nofollow - UMUR on RYM |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 6:15am
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Vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla vanilla!!! Whatcha gonna do now?!?!? -------------
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Posted By: bartosso
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2013 at 10:46am
Colt gonna shoot your head off. ------------- http://shrineofllyria.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - http://shrineofllyria.blogspot.com/ |