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Metal if Prog hadnt happend
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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Dec 2020 at 1:11pm
Coltrane is like 30% of Magma's sound so that alone makes him an influence on prog rock 
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Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:


"experimental" is not the qualifier than makes something prog rock, because if it was then the Kinks are prog rock for poking holes in speakers, and John Coltrane and Miles Davis and Sun Ra are prog rock, and Elvis is prog rock...

"experimental" is one of the qualifiers. 
I think Coltrane was an influence on some prog musicians, and Davis did fusion for a while. 

Elvis was never experimental if you ask me. 

Funny thing, I keep writing "experimetal" instead of "experimental" LOL
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I think you, me and Unitron are mostly saying the same thing in different ways Smile
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Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

More to the point, Motorhead (which is heavily rooted in Chuck Berry, Little Richard, MC5, etc) indicates Lemmy's influences don't really align with the rest of Hawkwind.  Even the handful of songs he composed for Hawkwind sound like Motorhead

I was just saying that Hawkwind was beneficial for Lemmy, a good thing for him. 
Before Hawkwind, he was in a band called Sam Gopal, which was a psychedelic folk rock of sorts, he played guitar and sang. 
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More to the point, Motorhead (which is heavily rooted in Chuck Berry, Little Richard, MC5, etc) indicates Lemmy's influences don't really align with the rest of Hawkwind.  Even the handful of songs he composed for Hawkwind sound like Motorhead

I will agree that the influence of Krautrock - most of which is closer to psych rock than to typical prog rock - on a lot of metal music is probably underexplored

"experimental" is not the qualifier than makes something prog rock, because if it was then the Kinks are prog rock for poking holes in speakers, and John Coltrane and Miles Davis and Sun Ra are prog rock, and Elvis is prog rock...


Edited by Triceratopsoil - 07 Dec 2020 at 12:39pm
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Originally posted by Unitron Unitron wrote:

Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

without prog there still would have been Sabbath and Motorhead 

bands like Maiden and Priest would likely have gone a different, punkier direction

the development of thrash metal wouldn't have changed much

virtually nothing in the black metal family tree has to do with prog rock

there would be no prog metal, naturally, and the evolution of death metal would be vastly different

prog rock also means that experimental attitude, going beyond the simple verse-chorus-verse structure that a lot of metal subgenres are doing, including black metal.

I also think Hawkwind was a good influence on Lemmy as a musician, so no Hawkwind, what would change with Motorhead?


That experimental attitude didn't start with and wasn't exclusive to prog rock, and prog rock could be just as derivative as any other genre. That's why I wish prog rock was just called symphonic rock or something, the progressive (and alternative for that matter) label doesn't work for a music genre when literally any new kind of music is a progression. Metal pretty much started out not being verse-chorus-verse, due to psychedelic rock's jam nature.

I think Hawkwind would still exist, they're more psychedelic rock than they are prog rock imo. They don't really have any of the symphonic element or flashy instrumentation of prog.


prog was more than just symphonic prog, Krautrock, eclectic are not flashy, probably symph and fusion were the most flashy, maybe heavy prog (Rush, Heep). Psychedelic music was an influence on prog, as was on hard rock and early metal. Hawkwind was quite experimental, a quality of progressive music. 
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Originally posted by LittleBig LittleBig wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

without prog there still would have been Sabbath and Motorhead 

bands like Maiden and Priest would likely have gone a different, punkier direction

the development of thrash metal wouldn't have changed much

virtually nothing in the black metal family tree has to do with prog rock

there would be no prog metal, naturally, and the evolution of death metal would be vastly different

prog rock also means that experimental attitude, going beyond the simple verse-chorus-verse structure that a lot of metal subgenres are doing, including black metal.

I also think Hawkwind was a good influence on Lemmy as a musician, so no Hawkwind, what would change with Motorhead?


That experimental attitude didn't start with and wasn't exclusive to prog rock, and prog rock could be just as derivative as any other genre. That's why I wish prog rock was just called symphonic rock or something, the progressive (and alternative for that matter) label doesn't work for a music genre when literally any new kind of music is a progression. Metal pretty much started out not being verse-chorus-verse, due to psychedelic rock's jam nature.

I think Hawkwind would still exist, they're more psychedelic rock than they are prog rock imo. They don't really have any of the symphonic element or flashy instrumentation of prog.

Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Without prog, no punk required.Wink


Punk would exist without prog too, The Stooges and MC5 were around at the same time.
If I say fuck two more times that's forty-six fucks in this fucked up rhyme
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Originally posted by Vim Fuego Vim Fuego wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

without prog there still would have been Sabbath and Motorhead 

bands like Maiden and Priest would likely have gone a different, punkier direction

the development of thrash metal wouldn't have changed much

virtually nothing in the black metal family tree has to do with prog rock

there would be no prog metal, naturally, and the evolution of death metal would be vastly different

Without prog, no punk required.Wink

or so the mainstream music media wants us to think. 

maybe if progressive music never existed, God knows what would have been instead of it. LOL
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Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

without prog there still would have been Sabbath and Motorhead 

bands like Maiden and Priest would likely have gone a different, punkier direction

the development of thrash metal wouldn't have changed much

virtually nothing in the black metal family tree has to do with prog rock

there would be no prog metal, naturally, and the evolution of death metal would be vastly different

Without prog, no punk required.Wink
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Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

without prog there still would have been Sabbath and Motorhead 

bands like Maiden and Priest would likely have gone a different, punkier direction

the development of thrash metal wouldn't have changed much

virtually nothing in the black metal family tree has to do with prog rock

there would be no prog metal, naturally, and the evolution of death metal would be vastly different

prog rock also means that experimental attitude, going beyond the simple verse-chorus-verse structure that a lot of metal subgenres are doing, including black metal. 

I doubt Priest would have gone punk, possibly some hard rock, blues rock, the only Priest album touched by prog is their second one. So I don't know. 

I also think Hawkwind was a good influence on Lemmy as a musician, so no Hawkwind, what would change with Motorhead? 


Edited by LittleBig - 07 Dec 2020 at 12:31am
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without prog there still would have been Sabbath and Motorhead 

bands like Maiden and Priest would likely have gone a different, punkier direction

the development of thrash metal wouldn't have changed much

virtually nothing in the black metal family tree has to do with prog rock

there would be no prog metal, naturally, and the evolution of death metal would be vastly different


Edited by Triceratopsoil - 06 Dec 2020 at 9:12pm
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It depends on what definition of prog is being used. If prog means legitimately progressive, I.E. a sense of innovation, than every single new genre of music is progressive. If prog as in the genre of progressive rock, metal would absolutely exist without progressive rock existing. Metal was mostly created out of psychedelic rock and blues rock, and various bands utilized elements of other genres.
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^ yeah, Time Signature pretty much nailed it which was the nail in the coffin of this thread!
Next LOL
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Originally posted by Time Signature Time Signature wrote:

I'd say that without prog, no metal. Without blues, no metal. Without rock 'n' roll, no metal. Without psychedelic rock, no metal. etc. Metal is, and has always been, a bastard genre... which is why I love it so much.

well said. Clap
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I'm sure Haken would be considered a pop act.
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Originally posted by Stooge Stooge wrote:

I've always thought of prog(gressiveness) as a frame of mind rather than a blanket musical movement.  People will always want to push boundaries in any walk of life.  
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Dream Theatre would be interesting to hear if the people still formed a band.


My Blog: http://kingcrimsonprog.wordpress.com/
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I've always thought of prog(gressiveness) as a frame of mind rather than a blanket musical movement.  People will always want to push boundaries in any walk of life.  
My Music Blog
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i agree but if you took out the element of prog in metal how would metal have evolved moved, it is difficult to imposible to answer but it sure would have sounded different
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Well, I am not good in these hypotheticals, I can only say it would be different and someone would eventually play something similar anyway, you can't contain the Muse and all that. But of course there would be metal.

BLACK SABBATH.
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