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Your recent non-metal purchases |
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progshine 
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 Posted: 26 May 2010 at 2:56am |
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3 Amazon pieces:
Genesis - Wind & Whuthering Jethro Tull - Minstrel In The Gallery The Alan Parsons Project - Tales Of Mystery And Imagination Of Edgar Alan Poe  |
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Testing 1...2...3..
RAY, IT'S NOT WORKING! www.progshine.net Your resource of Prog Rock with weekly Podcasts, reviews, interviews and many more. 
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Certif1ed
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Posted: 26 May 2010 at 3:10am |
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...You quite sure you get what constitues Heavy Metal?
Obviously I edited out the Eno, but everything else... OK, I'll give you Colosseum...
Phenomenon is probably the first "Proper" heavy metal album.
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topofsm
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Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Location: Hate state, USA Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 1:21am |
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^ I agree with him. I don't consider AC/DC or Zeppelin metal either.
 After this I will probably get the rest of their discography, even though I've listened to F#A# and it seems to pale to Skinny Fists.
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 3:43am |
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In that case, you need to listen to more of the music that made up "The New Wave of British Heavy Metal" - the era that gave rise to all true metal.
 Try Diamond Head, for starters (hailed as "The New Led Zeppelin" by Geoff Barton of Sounds - the man who coined the phrase "New Wave of British Heavy Metal), then Krokus and Def Leppard (not their crappy mid '80s pop stuff).
You might then want to listen to Saxon - like AC/DC, Saxon plundered Chuck Berry's lick and riff catalogue mercilessly. Try also listening to Vardis, who were without question a HUGE influence on Metallica - probably as much as Diamond Head, although Metallica have never given Vardis the full tribute.
Listen also to "Smokin Valves" by Holocaust - a Chuck Berry inspired 12-bar boogie a la AC/DC. Holocaust, it goes without saying, were massively important.
It's interesting that Motorhead never considered themselves Heavy Metal (listen to the song "On Parole" (from Motorhead's shelved and cynically postumously released 1975 debut of the same name), and tell me it doesn't sound like something by AC/DC - the song "High Voltage", from AC/DC's 1975 debut springs to mind immediately - and it's also interesting that Black Sabbath had next to no influence on the NWoBHM - in which context, they're not really "proper" metal.
Note the phrase "in which context"
See, everyone thinks that the NWoBHM was like this huge backlash against the blues or something - it so wasn't in the early days - 12-bar made up a sizeable chunk of it, and that was as much Metal as the stuff it mutated to over the course of 4-5 years. Edited by Certif1ed - 27 May 2010 at 3:49am |
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topofsm
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Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Location: Hate state, USA Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: 27 May 2010 at 11:48pm |
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^I know what the NWOBHM movement is. I just don't find AC/DC or Zeppelin's compositions metal. Influential for metal, yes. But essentially they just come down to hard rock. Diamond Head and Saxon may bear some similarities to those bands, but they also give an element of heaviness and darkness that they lacked. I understand that they don't have to be close to death or thrash to be metal, but I still can't think of AC/DC or Zeppelin as "metal" per se. |
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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The Pessimist
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 8:04am |
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 Absolutely epic album. I do love this band  I'm really getting into soul and it's relatives... Jamiroquai and The Temptations have been a few of my other purchases. Any fans of this sorta stuff in? |
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Certif1ed
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 9:15am |
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Think again - only today I reviewed a NWoBHM demo that was so clearly based on the riff from "Whole Lotta Rosie".
And I mentioned Krokus - who sounded more like AC/DC than AC/DC. I also mentioned Def Leppard, a key player in the NWoBHM, and definitely considered Metal at the time they released "On Through The Night" and "High and Dry", both of which have more than a few AC/DC influences.
"Powerage" is what I would call AC/DC's first "proper" metal album - the earlier ones are far more boogie than metal, even if very heavy. "Highway to Hell" and "Back in Black" are Metal classics period.
While they may not "be a metal band per se", they have put out material that is indisputably Metal - notably those two albums - together with "For Those About To Rock...", Powerage and "If You Want Blood...".
Whatever. AC/DC are a heavy metal band.
As for Zeppelin, I agree they're more proto - but at the time of the so-called "New Wave", who were considered the first wave?
Yup, Zeppelin, Purple et al (although it seems obvious now that Metal didn't really start until The Scorpions, UFO and The Sweet).
As for Zep's first LP, two words; "Communication Breakdown". What's not metal about that?
Final refreshers;
Why hard rock and not heavy metal, when it's actually heavy metal by design?
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topofsm
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Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Location: Hate state, USA Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: 28 May 2010 at 2:54pm |
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^ I'm speaking as a person who has not listened to very many AC/DC albums, but has listened to their music enough to know that most (if not all) their music is pretty much the same, with some slight differences between the Bon Scott and Brian Johnson era.
But I have listened to two albums by them, Back In Black and The Razor's Edge. And on those two albums plus various other 'single' type songs such as "Highway to Hell" and "For Those About to Rock" I have to say I only heard one song I would consider metal, "The Razor's Edge". That song is dark and brooding and starts with a fairly heavy and evil guitar line that would fit into pretty much any metal album. As for Back in Black, how the hell is that indisputably a metal album. Ok, I can see why some would call Hell's Bells metal, it's pretty dark, but it's also midtempo and most of the other elements are relatively mild. The rest of the tracks aren't even close! Most of them are just the standard AC/DC upbeat rock songs we know and love, not heavy, not dark. There's energy, but not as fast as anything NWOBHM or with agressive lyrics (we all know they wrote about sex, partying, and sex, with maybe a few other things thrown in). Hell, "You Shook Me All Night Long" is downright joyous. I'm sorry, but AC/DC for me is the archetypical hard rock band, and not a kind of metal band. And if you're going to tell me a blanket statement like "think again" I really doubt that helps. After all, they are mainly genres and pretty ambiguous. Someone may think of something as metal while someone else could think it couldn't be further from it. |
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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Certif1ed
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: 29 Mar 2010 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 473 |
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Posted: 29 May 2010 at 11:00am |
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Saminess has nothing to do with it!
The production on Highway to Hell turned it from a "hard rock" album into a "heavy metal" album (not that there's very much difference when we're talking about the 1970s).
Doesn't have to be evil to be metal.
It just is. How can it possibly not be?
Get away from this idea that speed=metal. That is bullshit.
"For Whom The Bell Tolls" was practically modelled on that track, it's midtempo, and it's metal.
Elements of metal can be mild!
To what?
Evil sounding and fast?
Sorry, but you're talking about ONE species of metal alone - it's not all Napalm Death, you know.
They are heavy - I'm frankly staggered you don't think so, because they are.
And get away from this obsession with darkness - it ain't all dark.
I beg to differ - there is lots of slower NWoBHM, and much in AD/DC that is very fast - The Rocker, for example, and their cover of "Baby Please Don't Go", then "Beating Around the Bush" - I could go on.
But speed is not everything - and not all metal is fast!
Yes, but in a sleazy, some might say aggressive - at least misogynistic manner that befits Heavy Metal Rock and Roll.
Quite.
And it's "archetypal", not "archetypical".
"Think again" is helpful, because it looks like it's necessary.
Interestingly, I was listening to a Holocaust song the other day which praises the merits of Heavy Metal music (not Heavy Metal Mania), and it specified AC/DC as the music of choice for heavy metal fans implicitly.
I know full well that there are a lot of people that consider AC/DC metal, even if there is a similar sized army of baffled sub 25 year-olds that don't. |
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topofsm
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Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Location: Hate state, USA Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: 29 May 2010 at 12:03pm |
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All I'm saying is you're comparing AC/DC to the NWOBHM movement. There's an element of darkness, agressiveness, speed, complexity, etc that is missing in AC/DC. When you strip away superficial elements of their sound get very basic riffs with standard drums. If they were played on acoustic guitars they would sound like bluesy rock riffs. Add the drums and it's still midtempo rock, there's nothing metal about the drums. Add in Bon Scott/Johnson and you've got your standard arena rock and roll singer, so you've still got a rock band. So once you add distortion, it's metal?
All I'm saying, there are other bands you've compared them too that simply still sound metal when stripped away. Saxon and Motorhead have those elements of agressiveness or darkness or speed that even when you listen on an acoustic guitar they sound metal.
I understand that you don't have to be necessarily fast and aggressive and dark and heavy to be metal. But you need some sort of mixture of at least a little of at least a couple of these elements. Power metal isn't always dark or heavy, but is fast by nature and often aggressive, and can contain dark minor key elements. Doom isn't fast or aggressive, but it's damned dark and heavy. NWOBHM has a mixture of all of these elements, but most notably has the element of speed and darkness that AC/DC lacks.
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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J-Man
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Posted: 29 May 2010 at 4:50pm |
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Just picked up these two at the library:
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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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lucas
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Joined: 31 Mar 2010 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 220 |
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Posted: 29 May 2010 at 6:16pm |
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^^
Not sure who won the battle in the hard rock vs heavy metal discussion (for me both these terms are interchangeable), but coming back to the topic (a copy-paste from PA) : Recent purchases (returning to an eclectic list) : - Lyle Lovett : 'Step inside this house' - Joseph Haydn - 'Symphonies n� 93, 84 & 95' (Sigiswald Kuijken, La petite bande) - Georg-Friedrich H�ndel - 'Gloria/Dixit Dominus' (Emma Kirkby, Royal academy of music baroque orchestra / Anne-Sophie von Otter, Drottningholm baroque ensemble) - Joseph Haydn - 'Sacred cantatas' (Emma Kirkby, London Baroque) - War - 'the world is a ghetto' - Metal Church - 'the dark' - Anathema - 'a natural disaster' - David Krakauer - 'Krakauer live in Krakow' - The Adicts - 'Songs of praise' - Jaga Jazzist - 'one-armed bandit' (not as good as on stage) - Toots Thielemans - 'ne me quitte pas' - Toots Thielemans & Elis Regina - 'aquarela do Brasil' to sum up : classical music, punk, klezmer, atmospheric rock, thrash metal, funk, country, electro-jazz, jazz and bossa nova ! |
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Dorosłe dzieci mają żal, za kiepski przepis na ten świat.
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Certif1ed
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Posted: 30 May 2010 at 4:46pm |
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There's no point in trying to be scientific and discuss elements when it comes to heavy metal.
All the "elements" you mention are in AC/DC's music.
Whether the riffs are basic or not has NOTHING to do with heavy metal.
Whether the drums are standard or not has NOTHING to do with heavy metal.
There's nothing standard about Bon Scott or Brian Johnson - you really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you taking the piss?
Speed and especially complexity are utterly irrelevant to heavy metal - what makes you think they're so important? The whole point of the NWoBHM (where heavy metal was DEFINED) was that it was DIY - anyone could do it - not that it was complicated or necessarily fast. Heavy was the important bit, not necessarily darkness.
AC/DC played Heavy Metal, Heavy Rock, Hard Rock, Boogie, Blues and even a ballad. They weren't just influential, but an integral part of the NWoBHM as much as Priest, Motorhead, Sabbath and other non-NW bands.
There is practically no metal site on the internet that won't include Back In Black in its all-time top heavy metal albums list - it is a quintessential genre-defining metal album.
You cannot say that NWoBHM has the element of speed and darkness that AC/DC lacks because it is not true. There are much slower, much lighter and much blusier NWoBHM songs a-plenty.
Here's the Holocaust song I was thinking of, from the Heavy Metal Mania EP (around 3 minutes in, AC/DC are name-called, aside from the obvious AC/DC riffs that run through the song);
Here's one you might recognise at first that's quite slow, which will point to another, more famous track that isn't particularly speedy;
...and this is quite slow, and not doomy;
There are plenty of Saxon or Motorhead songs you could play on an acoustic and have them not sound metal;
You're making simple generalisms that are based on a lack of understanding of how metal developed - and the NWoBHM is a lot more than you think - it is NOT a style that can be expressed in terms of its elements, as my definition on this site glosses over nicely. It is an era that included MANY styles under the umbrella of Heavy Metal Rock and Roll.
I cannot believe this discussion is even taking place on a metal site!
Back in Black is a quintessential metal album.
I think an "Introduction to Heavy Metal" thread is needed, as there's either a high level of ignorance, or simply a high level of trollage - and I'll stop hijacking this one right now... Edited by Certif1ed - 30 May 2010 at 4:53pm |
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topofsm
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Joined: 30 Mar 2010 Location: Hate state, USA Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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Posted: 30 May 2010 at 6:05pm |
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Yeah I'm not going to continue arguing about this, because this thread was meant for a separate purpose. Clearly we have two separate ideas about how metal is defined and what it sounds like, and there are people that agree with both sides.
I'm fine for arguing what bands are metal and which ones aren't, just not here. EDIT: In any event, if I buy any more albums from bands "I" don't consider metal: AC/DC, Zeppelin, Slipknot, Tool, Rush, Porcupine Tree, etc. I'm still going to post those purchases here  Edited by topofsm - 31 May 2010 at 1:36am |
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Lost respect for these archives when I saw Creed added, among other bands. Not going to be foruming here anymore. You can keep my reviews if you want.
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J-Man
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Posted: 30 May 2010 at 8:38pm |
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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Time Signature
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Posted: 02 Jun 2010 at 10:26am |
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Cynic: "Re-Traced"
Muse: "The Resistance" Porcupine Tree: "Metanoia" |
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Time Signature
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Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 1:50pm |
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Queen: "The Works"
The Storm: "Black Luck" [forgive me, UMUR ;-)] |
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Stooge
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Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 7:19pm |
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Ron Carter - Etudes (vinyl)
Tony Williams - Once In A lifetime (2LP vinyl) Mike Oldfield - Ommadawn (vinyl) Genesis - Spot The Pigeon EP ( blue vinyl) Dave Holland Quintet - Seeds Of Time (CD) Tomahawk - Mit Gas (CD) |
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Stooge
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Posted: 04 Jun 2010 at 12:25pm |
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Just came back from vinyl shopping:
Black Flag - My War (new) Marillion - Clutching At Straws Steve Hackett - Spectral Mornings Chris Squire - Fish out Of Water |
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Stooge
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Posted: 05 Jun 2010 at 5:41pm |
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Damn busy week for me.
 Oysterhead - The Grand Pecking Order  Massacre - Funny Valentine  |
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Reed Lover wrote:
